15 minutes ago, Will273 said:

I don't trust Google very much

Here's what NASA says:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-asteroid-tracking-system-now-capable-of-full-sky-search

My neighbor showed me on her cell phone how she can take a photo then edit something out to where whatever she edited out is no longer there in the photo as if it was never there when in fact it was....think what you could with the stars in the sky on a dark night. I think the media and others are gearing up for some BIG distraction in the future...when a certain someone becomes President and exposes the media and politicians around the world...when that happens I thin we may be over run with Aliens from outer space...the media is getting us ready....the ultimate distraction. Remember we are the sheep being fed and led by the mainstream media.

11 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

Here's what NASA says:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-asteroid-tracking-system-now-capable-of-full-sky-search

You're right...it doesn't track very much...not very comforting is it.

11 minutes ago, Will273 said:

You're right...it doesn't track very much...not very comforting is it.

How would you improve it?

What we need are translators to tell us what the aliens are saying. Or the locals in the Cotswold.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, martin-w said:

Given that an alien species visiting us, over absolutely unfathomably huge distances, or even from an entirely different causally disconnected realm, and having physics defying capabilities, is regarded as either impossible, or highly improbable by most scientists,

That's why I said to ignore the subject matter. Science moves forward in fits and starts sometimes, and until a new major discovery is made (and accepted), most scientists and their assessments of what's probable or possible, will be wrong (sometimes hilariously so). 

We've come pretty far in the last 500 years, but it's a bit much to assume we really "know" anything, when new discoveries often make it clear how little we "knew" before. 

 

17 hours ago, martin-w said:

Its possible. If it is deliberate disinformation for some reason, he either could be in on it, or an innocent victim. As for "series of insiders" I don't think we know haw many fed this information to him.

It was implied that several people have provided Grusch with information and evidence, soooo, more than two. Apparently some of them he's known for much of his career. 

Again, if this is a psy-op, what could be the purpose, and why do it this way? 

Also, so far, several people have come out to vouch for him, and some members of Congress are indicating that his credentials and elements of his story check out. 

17 hours ago, martin-w said:

He's careful not to reveal classified information. 

He has given 11 hours of classified testimony, under oath, to Congress.

The IGIC and Congress appear to be going through the process of vetting the information he's provided. Incoming legislation also appears to include provisions designed to flush out the alleged compartmented programs (and contractors) holding recovered materials. 

If he is found to be lying, I don't see it ending well for him. 

17 hours ago, martin-w said:

So for number 1, you are saying that its possible that there were technological cavillations on this planet before us that died out?

Yes. Possible. 

17 hours ago, martin-w said:

For number 2, life appeared on this planet as soon as it was cool enough, so I'm not sure how the theories could suggest any sooner. 

For number 3, again, life evolved on this planet as soon as it cooled. Thus VERY  early in the planets formation.

I'm suggesting maybe it got started later, but evolved quicker. 

 

17 hours ago, martin-w said:

For number 4, Again you seem to be suggesting that technological life appeared on this planet and was somehow wiped out, the Atlantis hypothesis. Speculative, perhaps improbable, but there's a non-zero chance of that hypothesis being correct.

That's one hypothesis. If there could be one, there could be many, but that's a whole other topic of conversation. 

 

17 hours ago, martin-w said:

What is probably missing here is the realization that technological capabilities don't appear in isolation. You don't serendipitously discover interdimensional travel, and then miraculously have that technology in your craft, unless ALL of the technologies and material science is in place to support that technology.

In 1903 we figured out basic aerodynamics and flew a couple hundred feet at a time. 120 years later we are routinely completing 15-hour intercontinental trips with machines that seem impossibly complex by comparison (and they still crash occasionally). 

Imagine if we had discovered some sort of anti-gravity (I dunno.... Electro-gravidic?) effect in the early 1900s when Tesla was still around, where would we be today? 

I'd wager we'd seem like an impossibly advanced civilization (until we opened our mouths). 

11 hours ago, dmwalker said:

How would you improve it?

Build more and point them in other directions to cover more of an area....but maybe a small area is better than none at all....I'm not a scientist so I don't know...guess they have their reasons.

13 hours ago, Will273 said:

How and why would the Ministry of Defence say it was no threat? How and why would they know anything about it...how could they claim it wasn't a threat if they knew nothing about it...unless they did know something about it? They'd have to know "something" in order to say it wasn't a threat.

 But the Ministry of Defence said it wasn't a threat....funny they'd say that as it's beaming a light on the Nuclear Weapons storage building. If that's true then you might want to have a closer look at your Ministry of Defence.😉

 

Typical response from the UK government with unexplained  encounters. This has happened before. They probably didn't know anything at all about it. Same thing happened regarding a pair of Tornado's that were flying across the North Sea. I recall they were on their way to Sweden, but don't quote me on that. They were cruising along when a mysterious metallic object flew alongside their jets. It flew alongside them for a while then accelerated away at blistering speed. I recall it was Nicholas Soames, an MP at the time, that asked in the House of Commons what this object was and if it was of defense significance. He received the same answer as per the Rendelsham, incident... Namely, we don't know what it was but we don't believe it was of defense significance. 

You are right, they couldn't claim it wasn't any kind of threat. Its was just the stock answer to such mysteries they gave at the time. they obviously aren't going to say "Oh my god yes, no idea what that is, this is happening lots". The response is obviously to play it down. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by martin-w

13 hours ago, Will273 said:

With all the technology spent on finding Life on other planets...all the money, telescopes, etc...you'd think they could detect a UFO that's already here...how would it not be detected long before it arrived...did it cloak itself and become a undetected Stealth UFO?

 

Well, the claim is that these objects can pretty much defy what we regard as the laws of physics, its claimed they can withstand thousands of G, accelerate instantly, are impervious to inertia etc. So if those claims are true, then yes, obviously they would be able to avoid detection when required.

We humans are working on meta-material cloaking devices that currently only work with certain wavelengths, like radar and IR. Now project forward a few thousand years and obviously that technology would have been perfected by our hypothetical alien's. In fact, if true, there could be a mega sized ship hovering above us and you would never know. 

 

 

5 hours ago, DaviiB said:

He has given 11 hours of classified testimony, under oath, to Congress.

 

Yes, I know, but not my point. You said he was doing this at  personnel risk. I was just pointing out that it has has been confirmed he's the first whistleblower to do this by the book. And when I said careful not reveling anything classified, I obviously meant "in public". He is not taking a personnel risk, by raveling classified stuff to Congress, where he's allowed to. 

 

5 hours ago, DaviiB said:

If he is found to be lying, I don't see it ending well for him. 

 

He's not claiming to have witnessed any of this stuff himself, he's saying "people told me this". That's all. So not much risk. And of course, nobody here has definitively stated they think he is lying, the question is whether he himself is being misled. 

 

5 hours ago, DaviiB said:

Imagine if we had discovered some sort of anti-gravity (I dunno.... Electro-gravidic?) effect in the early 1900s when Tesla was still around, where would we be today?

 

We didn't though did we. And as far as we know we still haven't. And that's because you need the scientific advancements, and importantly the material science advancement to achieve such a thing. You don't suddenly discover anti-gravity in balsa wood. 

For example.... some years ago, a Russian Scientist called Podkletnov, claimed that he had discovered a gravity shielding phenomenon, this was taken so seriously that NASA along with other bodies all over the world investigated. But this alleged effect didn't just happen in mundane, ordinary materials, it actually required a sophisticated, highly advanced superconductor material that was spinning rapidly. Turned out it was most likely nonsense, but you get the picture, sophisticated materials and understanding are required for such things.   

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by martin-w

5 hours ago, martin-w said:

11 hours ago, DaviiB said:

He has given 11 hours of classified testimony, under oath, to Congress.

 

Yes, I know, but not my point. You said he was doing this at  personnel risk. I was just pointing out that it has has been confirmed he's the first whistleblower to do this by the book. And when I said careful not reveling anything classified, I obviously meant "in public". He is not taking a personnel risk, by raveling classified stuff to Congress, where he's allowed to. 

 

11 hours ago, DaviiB said:

If he is found to be lying, I don't see it ending well for him. 

 

He's not claiming to have witnessed any of this stuff himself, he's saying "people told me this". That's all. So not much risk. And of course, nobody here has definitively stated they think he is lying, the question is whether he himself is being misled. 

OK, then that brings us back to him being lied to in some sort of coordinated, targeted disinformation campaign which hoped he'd quit his career and go public?

As of yesterday, I think at least one congressman has stated that other high-ranking individuals have come forward with either evidence and/or first-hand corroborating testimony, which is also being investigated.

This whole thing seems to causing quite a stir (not in the media, but in Congress).

 

5 hours ago, martin-w said:

We didn't though did we. And as far as we know we still haven't. And that's because you need the scientific advancements, and importantly the material science advancement to achieve such a thing. You don't suddenly discover anti-gravity in balsa wood. 

My point was that the actual advancement in material science etc. in the last 100 years (since the first powered flight) has been immense. 

So, if a certain type of effect was discovered, Engineers could quickly find a way to make use of it, and develop technologies around it......and it wouldn't take long (relatively) to go from basic concepts to advanced designs that make the originals look like toys.

Back to my original point....if a civilization were to discover an effect that enabled (relatively easy) gravity manipulation (or exclusion) at the same time we figured out basic aerodynamics....what would their equivalent of an F35, or Boeing 787 look like in 100 years, all other things being equal?

 

To give this hypothetical a chance at survival: I also think it's important to appreciate the effects of being locked / established within a particular paradigm. 

For example, when we (and Science in general) were convinced that "The earth is the center of the solar system and everything revolves around it"  (<<That's a paradigm), the math required to explain the observed movements of the Sun and planets in the sky was extremely complex (and I'm sure there were a few things that didn't fit). Either way, it was accepted as the "way things are", and the math basically worked.

It took some time for the truth to be understood and accepted (Sun at the center etc.), but once it was, the math became much simpler. 

Same observed effects, but the "science" became much easier once we stopped looking at everything the completely wrong way. 

We have theories in Physics, some of which are very complex, to explain observed effects from the macro, down to the quantum level. All (or almost all) of them have exceptions and things that don't fit. Sound familiar?

Science has advanced, but human nature hasn't really changed. We accept certain things as just "the way things are" when objectively, we're just locked into a particular paradigm. That paradigm could be correct, or it could be completely backwards. If it happened once, it could happen again.

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by DaviiB

"My point was that the actual advancement in material science etc. in the last 100 years (since the first powered flight) has been immense"

Advancements have been significant. But the advancements required to be impervious to inertia, enable thousands of G without structural failure and as speculated traverse dimensions... is orders of magnitude greater than that which the human race has experienced in the past 100 years. You are talking about a multitude scientific and technological advancements to enable the multiple physics defying capabilities these claimed craft have, not just one serendipitous discovery. 

 

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by martin-w

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/jun/17/aliens-ufo-uaps-us-defence-government-coverup-david-grusch

 

Quote

But there’s something much more down to earth that makes Michael Garrett, a radio astronomer at Jodrell Bank, part of Manchester University, and chair of the International Academy of Astronautics’s Seti (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) permanent committee, sceptical of Grusch’s story. It all comes down to a how badly these supposed aliens drive their spacecraft.

 

Quote

 

“If there were all these alien spacecraft crashing on Earth – well, that seems a bit weird. You’d think that if they could travel between the stars, they could get the last 0.0001% of the journey right too,” he says.

Thinking of the small number of accidents that occur each day compared with the vast number of road journeys undertaken, the idea of aliens crash-landing on our planet for decades seems implausible. “It would imply that there must be hundreds of them coming every day, and astronomers simply don’t see them,” says Garrett.

 

 

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by martin-w

4 hours ago, DaviiB said:

As of yesterday, I think at least one congressman has stated that other high-ranking individuals have come forward with either evidence and/or first-hand corroborating testimony, which is also being investigated.

 

That was Rubio. He is claiming others with high credentials have come forward with not just second hand information like Grusch, but first hand experience. 

 

15 hours ago, DaviiB said:

Imagine if we had discovered some sort of anti-gravity (I dunno.... Electro-gravidic?) effect in the early 1900s when Tesla was still around

 

Which we couldn't have. Anti-gravity isn't something you find under a bush one day.  If you want anti-gravity to be manifest, if it's possible, then it's our future understanding of quantum physics, maybe superconductivity and other aspects of science that's required, not something Tesla would have been messing about with.

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by martin-w

4 hours ago, martin-w said:

But the advancements required to be impervious to inertia, enable thousands of G without structural failure and as speculated traverse dimensions... is orders of magnitude greater than that which the human race has experienced in the past 100 years. You are talking about a multitude scientific and technological advancements to enable the multiple physics defying capabilities these claimed craft have, not just one serendipitous discovery. 

Being impervious to inertia / gravity eliminates the problem of G-Forces.

All I'm pointing out is that if you have a model (Paradigm) that is wrong at it's basis, but still sort-of works for explaining observed effects, something that might seem "orders of magnitude" more complex than current, accepted science might actually turn out to be much more simple if you were to correct the underlying assumption at the basis of your model.

To crowbar this (imperfect) example back in:

Getting from Earth to Mars would appear very complicated, or almost impossible, if your models were based around the Earth being the center of the solar system.

But once you fix the underlying assumption (and put the sun back in the center of the solar system), it becomes much simpler (or at least the math does).

A lot of current models / scientific theories have holes, exceptions and things that just don't line up. That could be indicative that one or more of our basic, underlying assumptions is wrong. 

Rules are rules. Laws of the universe should be universal  (<<now there's an assumption, but a reasonable one I think). If you're finding inconsistencies in your laws, you've probably missed something (more) fundamental.

 

Cheers,

DB

Edited June 27, 20232 yr by DaviiB