8 hours ago, DaviiB said:

There is quite a bit of evidence in the form of government documents, photos, videos and corroborative testimony from reliable witnesses and trained observers. About 80 years' worth. 

Proof is a whole different problem. 

Proof of what exactly? 

Proof that the phenomenon is real?  

Proof of the exact nature of what it is? (assuming that it's not multiple, separate phenomena) That's a very high bar to clear. 

Consider that it's taken NASA more than half a century to acknowledge that the phenomenon even exists and officially start studying it. It might be a while before the scientific community catches up

Then there is the other kind of proof, where the weight of the evidence becomes enough to convince an individual. That point will be different for everyone. 

 

Which type of proof are you referring to? 

DB

I'd be happy with evidence I could see and touch...like a solid object...documents won't do it for me and nothing from the government would either...something happening LIVE that could be verified...not a piece of "something" that has been kept secret for many years...I want to see it LIVE...I want it to fly over me and show itself to me. Yes it's a lot to ask but unless it's a mass sighting with hundreds of witnesses with good video footage and it's LIVE headline breaking news as it would be if it was real...without that I have to ask why would anyone believe in any of this? It makes no sense at all and I can't take it seriously...it's a joke being played on the public and everyone is falling for it. I have to ask....do you believe in Bigfoot?...just wondering.

Sorry to go off topic here and hope I don't offend anyone but are you aware of how the media works? Have you ever heard of the Bilderberg Group and what they do? The Media is a mouthpiece for the government and is run by George Soros and other world leaders. It's a deep rabbit hole and you'd be surprised and shocked at what you find and how it works. If you do your share of research in this you'll discover much more and how this UFO stuff fits in nicely with their agenda...you'll be able to connect the dots and things will start making sense...that's if you REALLY want to see where all this is coming from...if not then just continue with the UFO speculation. There is more proof and evidence in how we are being manipulated by the media than you think and it's scarey. Again sorry to bring this up but the media does play a part in all of this and people should be aware of it.

Edited July 5, 20232 yr by Will273

1 hour ago, Will273 said:

If you do your share of research in this you'll discover much more and how this UFO stuff fits in nicely with their agenda.

Since you have already done the research, why don't you give us some links to your sources and tell us why you don't think you are being manipulated by them?

1 hour ago, Will273 said:

are you aware of how the media works?

 

Interestingly, in terms of freedom of the press, the US is right down in 45th place between Tonga and Gambia. 😲 UK 26th place. Norway is number 1. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index

This is heading toward politics though, which isn't allowed on the forum, so perhaps we should take care. 

 

53 minutes ago, Will273 said:

I'd be happy with evidence I could see and touch...like a solid object...documents won't do it for me and nothing from the government would either...something happening LIVE that could be verified...not a piece of "something" that has been kept secret for many years...I want to see it LIVE...I want it to fly over me and show itself to me. Yes it's a lot to ask but unless it's a mass sighting with hundreds of witnesses with good video footage and it's LIVE headline breaking news as it would be if it was real...without that I have to ask why would anyone believe in any of this? It makes no sense at all and I can't take it seriously...it's a joke being played on the public and everyone is falling for it. I have to ask....do you believe in Bigfoot?...just wondering.

We're talking about a phenomenon that tends to leave behind very little evidence (most of the time apparently..... lol). There have been mass-sightings in the past though, like what you describe. Most of us have not been that unlucky to unexpectedly have our worldview upended. 

Either way, you're asking for something that seems to violate the general nature of the phenomenon. It's rare, doesn't stick around long, and tends to stay away from large populations.

It doesn't seem likely to happen that way.

As for Bigfoot....don't know. Haven't looked into it.

 

1 hour ago, Will273 said:

Sorry to go off topic here and hope I don't offend anyone but are you aware of how the media works? Have you ever heard of the Bilderberg Group and what they do? The Media is a mouthpiece for the government and is run by George Soros and other world leaders. It's a deep rabbit hole and you'd be surprised and shocked at what you find and how it works. If you do your share of research in this you'll discover much more and how this UFO stuff fits in nicely with their agenda...you'll be able to connect the dots and things will start making sense...that's if you REALLY want to see where all this is coming from...if not then just continue with the UFO speculation. There is more proof and evidence in how we are being manipulated by the media than you think and it's scarey. Again sorry to bring this up but the media does play a part in all of this and people should be aware of it.

And that's why you should pay attention to exactly which media outlets are covering this story...and which aren't. 

Look at the credentials of the person making the claims, the reaction of the ICIG, the reaction of the congressmembers looking into it, and the wording of the new legislation being proposed (<<that one is quite telling).

No matter which way you look at it, the basic facts present a very interesting story that warrants further investigation, and......still nothing from certain media organizations, more than a month later.

Everyone will draw their own conclusions from this. Reality is colored by worldview, so that complicates the matter (e.g. how much and what kind of evidence counts as proof). Run it through your own filters that way and let me know what comes out the other end.

 

Cheers
DB

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

Interestingly, in terms of freedom of the press, the US is right down in 45th place between Tonga and Gambia. 😲 UK 26th place. Norway is number 1. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index

This is heading toward politics though, which isn't allowed on the forum, so perhaps we should take care. 

 

Sorry and I sort of thought this subject wouldn't be allowed which I understand and will keep it short. I'm thinking there is such a thing as to much Freedom of the Press or twisted news, inaccurate news, mispelled news, fake news, half a story news, half a video news, etc...the media can say anything even if it's not true and it makes Headline News when in fact nothing of the sort actually happens the way they say it yet they get away with it and everyone is supposed to believe it. Again sorry about bringing all this up...it plays apart in what we're talking about but we're not allowed to talk about it...I get it.

1 hour ago, DaviiB said:

We're talking about a phenomenon that tends to leave behind very little evidence (most of the time apparently..... lol). There have been mass-sightings in the past though, like what you describe. Most of us have not been that unlucky to unexpectedly have our worldview upended. 

Either way, you're asking for something that seems to violate the general nature of the phenomenon. It's rare, doesn't stick around long, and tends to stay away from large populations.

It doesn't seem likely to happen that way.

As for Bigfoot....don't know. Haven't looked into it.

 

And that's why you should pay attention to exactly which media outlets are covering this story...and which aren't. 

Look at the credentials of the person making the claims, the reaction of the ICIG, the reaction of the congressmembers looking into it, and the wording of the new legislation being proposed (<<that one is quite telling).

No matter which way you look at it, the basic facts present a very interesting story that warrants further investigation, and......still nothing from certain media organizations, more than a month later.

Everyone will draw their own conclusions from this. Reality is colored by worldview, so that complicates the matter (e.g. how much and what kind of evidence counts as proof). Run it through your own filters that way and let me know what comes out the other end.

 

Cheers
DB

What I come up with is DISTRACTION...most politicians on both sides are rotten to the core and work together with the mainstream media here in the USA and other countries around the world and most people believe their own politicians are loyal and trustworthy...it's turning into a global world wide effect. How are those 15 minute cities coming along in the UK?

3 hours ago, dmwalker said:

Since you have already done the research, why don't you give us some links to your sources and tell us why you don't think you are being manipulated by them?

Looks at YOUR news, look at YOUR education system, crime and violence, defund the police, letting men compete against women in sports...try to connect the dots. It all comes from the media.

Edited July 5, 20232 yr by Will273

  

20 hours ago, martin-w said:

DOPSAR would have escalated it to a higher level though if they weren't "read in". And at that higher level they may have investigated it prior and be aware  that it was not true and thus not classified. There are numerous possible reasons why, at the higher level, the claims may be regarded as harmless. Higher echelons equate to higher awareness. 

You're assuming that's what happened. 

We have a datapoint to put that in doubt (the alleged extremely quick turnaround of the request).

There's lots of information out there about people complaining that their simple requests are taking months to be replied to. 

Something's inconsistent here. We have contradicting information that points in different directions and puts both arguments in doubt.

That's the point I wanted to make. Something doesn't line up.

Frustratingly, that is often the case with this subject (both the "official" story, and the "alleged" story have holes)

 

20 hours ago, martin-w said:

The "oops moments" would already be in the public domain though. That's what we're talking about, classified information that shouldn't get out that "oops" gets out. So far, they seem to have a good record and that hasn't happened.

My point on this is that the people making the request just want to put the information out there, and don't broadcast that "this is  classified information" << that's a great way to find yourself in jail.

DOPSER's job is to review all of the requests that come in and screen them for classified information. If they miss something, and a publication goes ahead, the information will be out there, but the general assumption would be that it's not classified (because it passed the review)

DOPSER wouldn't then be inclined to make a bunch of noise by publicly asking for a recall, or taking other overt actions, which would shine a spotlight on the classified information (the exact opposite of what they want). 

In that case, you or I would never know the information was classified. (Unless it was a huge, obvious, easily verifiable screwup that the media jumped on)

Everybody screws up sometimes. Nobody has a perfect track record. Whether or not we know about it is a completely different thing.

20 hours ago, martin-w said:

I don't think its sensible to just assume that at a higher level than DOPSAR, they are all idiots and just approve extreme, fantastical stuff like dead aliens and multiple crashed hyper advanced saucers, and government conspiracies, on a  whim. It would be ridiculous to assume they would behave that way with such mind-blowing revelations, if true. 

No, of course not. hence my point that something seems off.

I'll get to some actual skepticism (as requested) in a moment, but it's not a stretch to see that DOPSER quickly approving fantastical, mind-blowing claims could be a good way to maintain deniability, and introduce doubt. Especially if something is truly off the books. 

Imagine if it somehow came out down the line that a DOPSER request was submitted, and all of the fantastical claims were restricted from publication because the information was classified. It leaves a paper trail and could be seen as an admission of-sorts.

 

20 hours ago, martin-w said:

I haven't seen any skepticism or reasonable doubt from you at all yet though. Only an attempt to counter all skepticism. Not one skeptical point Ive made have you agreed with.

 

Would you like to list the skepticism and reasonable doubt you have regarding the claims of Grusch, to redress the balance a bit? 

Sure. I haven't really gone down that road because it's obvious enough to me. Apologies.
 

• Tough to believe Gursh's motivations are purely benign. We don't have the whole backstory and, being an "intelligence official"....well....once a spy, always a spy?
• There is money to be made, and attention to be had in the UFO game. Skepticism of all claims is warranted.
• The longer it takes to drip "information" out, the more money there is to be made. i.e. Lucy and the football. The "will they, won't they" game is exciting and generates clicks.
• At the current moment, all of his claims are second-hand. Easy enough. It's not evidence....just claims.
• Information could have been fed to him deliberately, making him and AARO a bit of a patsy for some, bigger disinfo campaign (even more worrying, and illegal actually).
• Current accepted scientific models do not allow for the existence of much of what has been claimed. To accept most of what's claimed, you're operating completely outside of modern, accepted science. 
• Reasoning / extrapolating outward from current scientific models will likely land you at very different conclusions that don't fit, or allow for what's been claimed.
• To accept what is being claimed requires quite a leap in logic and we don't have any serious theories to act as stepping stones in that direction.
• The claims sound completely bananas.
• The UFO phenomenon / phenomena has a long history of grifters, possible disinformation agents and other general nonsense muddying the waters. 
  • On this point....I've even read Colonel Corso's book "The Day After Roswell". At one point I put it down, because the information smelled funny, and just didn't seem believable for a number of reasons...the dots didn't seem to connect right (to me) for some aspects of the story.. It could just be matter-of-fact the writing style, or there's something actually off with it. I don't know.

 

All this to say......yes there are lots of reasons to be skeptical. 

As is probably obvious as well, I'm being careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Every claim, no matter how bananas, can be looked at and analyzed (that's the fun part for me)

Here's the thing. We now have acknowledgement that there is a phenomenon here, and evidence that it has been around for quite some time (50+ years at least).

It seems to be less and less likely that there is a prosaic explanation for it (within the realm of currently accepted science at least)

If that is the case, and there is an "other", the actual truth (whatever it turns out to be) is going to sound completely bananas, because it will be in violation of the accepted scientific paradigm. Until such time that it is accepted as the truth, it will sound unbelievable, unscientific, crazy etc.

I'm playing the game of "If this is true, how could it be true?....or what else would have to be true?" on some of the claims.

Cheers
DB

Edited July 5, 20232 yr by DaviiB

31 minutes ago, Will273 said:

What I come up with is DISTRACTION...most politicians on both sides are rotten to the core and work together with the mainstream media here in the USA

That's my point. The Mainstream media hasn't touched this one, except to brush it off (while ignoring most of the facts).

That sub though.....😉

DB

7 hours ago, martin-w said:

You haven't seem my S21 Ultra then. As a former professional photographer I can tell you its quite remarkable and it can certainly handle decent images beyond 200 feet.  

The overwhelming majority of cellphones and cellphone cameras are not nearly that capable.

13 minutes ago, DaviiB said:

That's my point. The Mainstream media hasn't touched this one, except to brush it off (while ignoring most of the facts).

That sub though.....😉

DB

Now you're seeing how they work...if it's REALLY important they will keep it quiet and keep you in the dark....the less you know the better.

1 hour ago, Will273 said:

Now you're seeing how they work...if it's REALLY important they will keep it quiet and keep you in the dark....the less you know the better.

So which is it?

 - Are the admissions from David Grusch and the resulting congressional actions / inquiry a psyop?

 - Or is the story being suppressed? (implying at least some of it is true)

 

Which narrative are "they" trying to get the public to believe?

2 hours ago, Will273 said:

Looks at YOUR news, look at YOUR education system, crime and violence, defund the police, letting men compete against women in sports...try to connect the dots. It all comes from the media.

I still don't get your point. I guess my dots are different from your dots.

David Fravor is on the Merged podcast with Ryan Graves.

Fravor of tic tac fame and Ryan was flying F18's during the similar carrier incident in 2015, when they saw cubes in transparent spheres.

 

 

Highly doubtful aliens came here.  You’d need to travel many times faster than the speed of light to get anywhere.  Plus no creatures can survive the acceleration needed to get up to that speed and to decelerate to land.