difference between 30-40 frames butter smooth and 60 to 80 f

[MrBitstFlyer 3,896]

20 minutes ago, Noel said:

They who have not personally witnessed this can't appreciate it I understand, and thanks for chiming in.

I guess most of us have spent years trying to get rid of stutters, but your focus on FTV (frame time values) using MSI Afterburner / RiverTuner is by far the simplest and easiest way to get rid of stutters.  What can be simpler than setting an FPS value and watching two readouts - the average FPS, 1% FPS and one graph - FTV!

Within minutes I had discovered the FPS to use to guarantee smooth FTV and thus smooth flight with zero stutters.  I do look forward to an upgrade, but it is no longer a must given my current system is working so smoothly!

[Noel 4,563]

14 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Within minutes I had discovered the FPS to use to guarantee smooth FTV and thus smooth flight with zero stutters.  I do look forward to an upgrade, but it is no longer a must given my current system is working so smoothly!

Hopefully others less hardware endowed won't be dissuaded by the kneejerk dismissal you see by those with best hardware in this and other threads.  I do look forward to an upgrade as well, but only when this CPU fails.  It's trying...I've had to increase core voltage a bit every few months of late.

This....   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -   34fps

...always beats this for perception of smoothness: 

- - -  - - - -- - - --- - - - - - -- - -- -- - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - -- - --  60fps

And this...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  60fps

....is hardly distinguishable from the first entry, hence one can retain headroom for coping with transient spikes in load, and so help reduce stutters induced by those transients.

As a side point old CptPiett, when he got his 4090, ran an FTV analysis using CapFrameX w/ FG turned on:  turns out he DID NOT have very good FTV at all, despite high frame rate.  I've always maintain high frame rates can obscure poor FTV.  This was only one user, which is why I've asked others to humor me and run the test using FG, but so far no takers--they're all too busy dismissing the concept out of hand.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Noel

[ThomseN_inc 1,128]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Sorry, me too, 3 plus decades of FS use.  I don't think about smoothness anymore either since last December when I discovered the pathway to ultimate smoothness at modest frame rates.  I'm 100% certain you've never witnessed this else you'd be less quick to brush it aside. 

They who have not personally witnessed this can't appreciate it I understand, and thanks for chiming in.  My message has always been aimed at those w/o top end hardware to brute force their way past marginal FTV.  I will eventually upgrade my CPU primarily as that is the only stumbling block to perfect animation, and even now it's almost always near perfect from gate to gate.  A new CPU will help my system cope with FSLTL which I have to dial back due to load on my CPU.

I did play on 30Hz for the last years...so dont tell me i dont know how that feels. But i recently took it a step further to "real" ultimate smoothness at even higher framerates.

Noel, maybe its the other way around. You dont know how it feels to run MSFS at a stable 60 (or even more) FPS with all settings maxed out? Anyway. If you are happy with your sim and how its operating, all is fine. I just dont think you shoud judge the way other people are running it. 

[Noel 4,563]

9 minutes ago, ThomseN_inc said:

I did play on 30Hz for the last years...so dont tell me i dont know how that feels. But i recently took it a step further to "real" ultimate smoothness at even higher framerates.

Noel, maybe its the other way around. You dont know how it feels to run MSFS at a stable 60 (or even more) FPS with all settings maxed out?  

What in heck are you talking about?  No can read and comprehend?  This has nothing to do w/ playing at 30Hz/30FPS.  I did too, for decades.  NOT THE SAME. Get it yet? 

As I've taken care to mention in these threads, and you obviously flatly ignore over and over in your quest to dispute this, I've certainly run MSFS stable at 60+ FPS in maxed settings in lesser aircraft and know 1000% exactly how it "feels"; and moreover, I've done this using the method I've described so retained ultra low FTV.  And guess what:  it's hardly any better and sometimes is worse, for reasons I have postulated on.  You, OTOH, clearly have never tried the method I took pains to describe to help those w/o spare $$ to upgrade, else you would be far less quick to dispute this, and instead encourage others w/o the ability to buy highest end to give it a shot.

34 minutes ago, ThomseN_inc said:

I just dont think you shoud judge the way other people are running it. 

Man that's creative I have to hand it to you 🤣

 

[ThomseN_inc 1,128]

4 minutes ago, Noel said:

What in heck are you talking about?  No can read and comprehend?  This has nothing to do w/ playing at 30Hz/30FPS.  I did too, for decades.  NOT THE SAME. Get it yet? 

As I've taken care to mention in these threads, and you obviously flatly ignore over and over in your quest to dispute this, I've certainly run MSFS stable at 60+ FPS in maxed settings in lesser aircraft and know 1000% exactly how it "feels"; and moreover, I've done this using the method I've described so retained ultra low FTV.  And guess what:  it's hardly any better and sometimes is worse, for reasons I have postulated on.  You, OTOH, clearly have never tried the method I took pains to describe to help those w/o spare $$ to upgrade, else you would be far less quick to dispute this, and instead encourage others w/o the ability to buy highest end to give it a shot.

Man that's creative I have to hand it to you 🤣

 

Its hardly any better for you. For me its far better. I have no idea wht OTOH means but i just gave you method a try and immediately switched back to my setup. No thanks Noel.

Just go on praising your "method". I'm out flying.

Edit: If your german is better than my english i'd be happy to discuss further in my native language.

Edited October 22, 2023 by ThomseN_inc

[Fielder 3,731]

" and know 1000% exactly how it "feels"

Wow, 1000% knowledge is a rare achievement !

 

[MrBitstFlyer 3,896]

2 hours ago, ThomseN_inc said:

I did play on 30Hz for the last years...so dont tell me i dont know how that feels. But i recently took it a step further to "real" ultimate smoothness at even higher framerates.

Noel, maybe its the other way around. You dont know how it feels to run MSFS at a stable 60 (or even more) FPS with all settings maxed out? Anyway. If you are happy with your sim and how its operating, all is fine. I just dont think you shoud judge the way other people are running it. 

You seem to have mis-understood the explanation of why FTV (frame time variance), and not FPS, is actually a more important measure for smoothness in the sim for many of us.  For simmers like myself, with less than ideal specs for MSFS, can still get a perfectly smooth sim by focussing on FTV rather than FPS.

By using MSI Afterburner/Rivertuner, FPS and FTV can be displayed in an overlay on MSFS.  If I set Rivertuner to allow 60fps in MSFS, I see the following...

FPS - 60
Average fps = 48
1 percent fps = 28
FTV graph shows inconsistant frame times.

In MSFS, the flight is stuttery with these figures.  Next step is to set the maximum fps to the average in the first test = 48 fps.  The overlay will now display something like the following...

FPS - 48
Average fps = 48
1 percent fps = 28
FTV graph is now almost completely smooth, but with stutters in MSFS when the fps drops below 48.

MSFS is now almost completely smooth because we have set the fps at 48 to match the average.  I don't want to run the sim at 29fps, because smoothness will suffer with hardware like the Tobii eyetracker.  I drop the graphic setting slightly to get the following result...

FPS = 48
average fps = 48
1 percent fps = 34
FTV graph is now almost completely smooth, but with stutters in MSFS when the fps drops below 48

This shows me that the fps is only dropping below 34, ONE PERCENT OF THE TIME.  In Rivertuner I set the max fps in MSFS to 34 to get a butter smooth performance 99% of the time.  Butter smooth at 34 fps is MUCH better than a stuttery 60fps - FTV trumps chasing FPS! 🙂

Of course, if your system is capable of high FPS using things like FG, you may not have to worry about stutters at all - BUT getting a smooth FTV and NOT chasing FPS leads to butter smooth flying on lesser spec systems.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by MrBitstFlyer

[brucewtb 250]

Well this thread has opened a can of worms but I now understand why I don't see much judder - I don't use head tracking and I don't pan very much around the cockpit and rely on hot keys mapped to joystick buttons for view changes..  So things are mostly smooth even with (by today's standards) modest hardware.  However I can get short pauses sometimes 2 or 3 on final approach to some complex airports in complex aircraft - are these stutters or something else and can they be eliminated by better hardware and/or by sim/pc settings changes?

Bruce

[MrBitstFlyer 3,896]

2 minutes ago, brucewtb said:

Well this thread has opened a can of worms but I now understand why I don't see much judder - I don't use head tracking and I don't pan very much around the cockpit and rely on hot keys mapped to joystick buttons for view changes..

Judder is not something generated by head tracking hardware, but it does show up an unbalanced system.  I have used both TrackIR and now Tobii Eyetracker with no judder at 34fps.  As you have read in this this thread, getting smooth Frame Time Variance is much more important than high FPS on systems less than the ideal for MSFS.

[Ianrivaldosmith 5,317]

23 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Judder is not something generated by head tracking hardware, but it does show up an unbalanced system.  I have used both TrackIR and now Tobii Eyetracker with no judder at 34fps.  As you have read in this this thread, getting smooth Frame Time Variance is much more important than high FPS on systems less than the ideal for MSFS.

Wrong. Judder in trackIR is because the camera works at 120hz. So if you’re at 34 frames per second with trackIR, it’s awful. 
the refresh/poll rate that the TrackIR camera uses is 120z  This means that games should run at 40 Hz, 60 Hz, or 120 Hz, in order to get a smooth experience. 40 Bare minimum, 60 preferred and 120 The holy grail. 

[MrBitstFlyer 3,896]

1 hour ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Wrong. Judder in trackIR is because the camera works at 120hz. So if you’re at 34 frames per second with trackIR, it’s awful. 
the refresh/poll rate that the TrackIR camera uses is 120z  This means that games should run at 40 Hz, 60 Hz, or 120 Hz, in order to get a smooth experience. 40 Bare minimum, 60 preferred and 120 The holy grail. 

Higher is better of course, but my comments explained very carefully it is about those of us who CAN'T maintain a smooth 40fps or above!!  I agree with you 40fps is a point where head movement smooths out, but what use is having smooth head movement if the MSFS itself is stuttering?  I am pleased for you if you are able to chase 120 fps, but why are you pushing this point when my comments are for those on lesser systems?

In any case, 34 isn't awful, it is perfectly useable.

[MrBitstFlyer 3,896]

4 hours ago, ThomseN_inc said:

Noel, maybe its the other way around. You dont know how it feels to run MSFS at a stable 60

I can easily run at 70fps + so know how that feels, but the view out the window is awful 🤗  Getting a smooth FTV has been the key to maximise smoothness and settings on my system.

[brucewtb 250]

3 hours ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Judder is not something generated by head tracking hardware, but it does show up an unbalanced system.  I have used both TrackIR and now Tobii Eyetracker with no judder at 34fps.  As you have read in this this thread, getting smooth Frame Time Variance is much more important than high FPS on systems less than the ideal for MSFS.

To be clear I don't use head tracking hardware I change cockpit views by selecting cameras via controller buttons.  I was just speculating that if you are moving your POI across the cockpit space you might see judder whereas I don't.  Anyway this is all become bit moot for me because with GPU prices heading back to crypto mining levels in Australia I have decided to sell my 3080ti and get a 4090 before it is too late pricewise.

Bruce

[GSalden 4,700]

@MrBitstFlyer,

What about the frequency of the monitor ?

Vsync, Gsync. Not everyone has a Gsync monitor.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ray Proudfoot
Long quoted post removed.

[Sunshine13 234]

the point I get is that u get 40 frames butter smooth. u should be a happy camper,  u get 60 or 80 frames u should also be a happy camper.. Remember for example we are talking about the same plane, PMDG 737 and a busy airport.

But their are so many other factors that effect the simulator..  Your graphic setting in the simulator are u using dx11 or dx12, and how many addons do u have in your community folder.

Concluding, remember this is a simulator, not a one shooter game, or race car driving etc  Personally I see no reason to try and get 60-80 frames.  I have been simming for many years and the key was always to try and get a butter smooth performance.