Just curious what is the difference to butter smooth performance 30 to 40 frames and 60 to 80 frames butter smooth perforamcne ?

Take for instance I am using the PMDG 700 series at an airport such as KEWR,, KORD, or KLAX or KPVU. or CYU,   Personally I keep my frames locked at 40 and my graphic settings are ULTRA and HIGH, using DX11, using FS Traffic. my specs are below, TLOD  at 150=200, Nividia 3080 10700K 4.8ghz OC.  What are your thoughts ?  Don't forget to put your settings in as well.

The problem with chasing numbers for the sake of chasing numbers is that then the numbers start chasing you....

" ULTRA and HIGH, using DX11, using FS Traffic. my specs are below, TLOD  at 150=200 "

If you could upgrade hardware to have smooth at 60 instead of 30 with your above settings, then with that new hardware you could instead set ULTRA everything and bigger LOD values than the above and stay at 30. In other words 60 smooth gives you the option of locking at 30 and increasing your graphics settings in the sim.

People with 4090 and 7800X3D are saying they can lock at 60 with 4K monitor and everything on Ultra LOD 200 & 300 at dense scenery areas in a glass cockpit detailed airliner, and use TLAA.

(I can't do all that with my system, 4070 5800X3D).I do DLSS Quality ULTRA preset everything LODs 180-180 and get 50+ fps anywhere on single 1440p monitor. I don't use TLAA (it reduces fps a lot).

So, better hardware than mine can really kick up performance, from what I read here online!

I'm running ultra everything, and TLOD at 300. I seldom use AI traffic (FSLTL w/ Justflight FS Traffic) or PSXT (that DESTROYS performance). If anything, I'll hop on Vatsim, or when stress testing, I'll use AI or PSXT. I aim for at least 60 FPS in all situations. This is with Frame Generation as well. The difference between "butter smooth" at 30 or 40 vs 60 & beyond is honestly night and day. I'd say there's reduced "judder." Assuming there are no frametime issues, (i.e. 30 FPS with 33.3ms between frames), it feels "juddery." At 60 and beyond, panning around with the mouse feels like ice skating. Totally smooth. When I move my mouse on the mouse pad, there are no skips or jumps. It feels like I'm moving the mouse on ice...that translates directly to what I'm seeing on the screen. Completely smooth. Imagine having a gaming controller on vibrate in your mouse, and then panning around with that constant "judder" of the vibration. That's what 30 FPS looks like to me. Remove that and you have a totally smooth display. I can't think of any other way to describe it other than ice skating. Try this for yourself. Turn everything down to the absolute minimum, hop in a plane and try panning around with the mouse, you'll see what I'm talking about.

What exactly is "judder" - I see this referred to a lot but have no idea what it is.  I guess after spending many thousands of dollars on a rig you need to find something to justify the expense - I know I would.

Bruce

It has absolutely zero to do with justification. I thought the same thing initially, before I upgraded. Once I actually experienced what people were talking about, everything made sense. Judder is the latency between frames that causes a micro pause displayed while changing the camera position at an accelerated rate. If you pan 2 degrees per second, the judder is significantly reduced as the rendered frames have very little change in their display. Physical home flight deck simulators benefit from running 30 FPS as the whole view does not change very rapidly. Though while making a 90 degree turn while taxiing may cause the effect of "judder" to show. In monitor based flight simulation, while looking around the cockpit (especially during preflight, changing views between the overhead, pedestal, and main panel) the rapid movement can cause the display to "judder." This is due to what was previously displayed to what is currently displayed changing fairly significantly. With a higher framerate, the frametime (time between frames) is reduced. Therefore, 30 FPS creates a 33.3 ms delay between each frame. 60 FPS has a 16.7 ms delay between each displayed frame, 120 halves it even further. The increase in framerate allows for large differences in what is displayed while being smooth. Another frame or two is rendered reducing this delay, and in doing so, reduces the overall effect of judder.

not to be word not allowed about Judder, lengthy info about it, but can u break it down into a couple of easy sentence what Judder is really all about?? V1ROTAZE  appreciate it! Nice and simple, thanks

3 hours ago, V1ROTA7E said:

It has absolutely zero to do with justification. I thought the same thing initially, before I upgraded. Once I actually experienced what people were talking about, everything made sense. Judder is the latency between frames that causes a micro pause displayed while changing the camera position at an accelerated rate. If you pan 2 degrees per second, the judder is significantly reduced as the rendered frames have very little change in their display. Physical home flight deck simulators benefit from running 30 FPS as the whole view does not change very rapidly. Though while making a 90 degree turn while taxiing may cause the effect of "judder" to show. In monitor based flight simulation, while looking around the cockpit (especially during preflight, changing views between the overhead, pedestal, and main panel) the rapid movement can cause the display to "judder." This is due to what was previously displayed to what is currently displayed changing fairly significantly. With a higher framerate, the frametime (time between frames) is reduced. Therefore, 30 FPS creates a 33.3 ms delay between each frame. 60 FPS has a 16.7 ms delay between each displayed frame, 120 halves it even further. The increase in framerate allows for large differences in what is displayed while being smooth. Another frame or two is rendered reducing this delay, and in doing so, reduces the overall effect of judder.

Thank you very helpful.

Bruce

I have always used flight simulators at half monitor refresh rate with vsync on, so mostly 60= 30 fps, or 33% of refresh rate of 120=38 fps or so.  I have changed my cpu and for the first time I used the simulator at 60 fps and it was night and day as V1ROTA7E says.  I do a lot of view changes and 60 fps is a different world.  I was really surprised, as I thought I would never be able to tell the difference between 30 fps and so on in MSFS, but I can and its night and day.  Right now I am getting used to using 38 fps, I will test more with the 60 fps 'mouse ice skating' when able.  I do mostly instrument flying airlines, so I can use fps in the 30's and be happy, but I was sure surprised by 60; feels like a different simulator to me.

Simon

10 hours ago, Sunshine13 said:

Just curious what is the difference to butter smooth performance 30 to 40 frames and 60 to 80 frames butter smooth perforamcne ?

30 to 40 is crunchy peanut butter for me, even with GSync.

I would love to lock framerate at 60 but for noise reasons I settled at 48 fps. Very smooth for normal operations; if I played Reno races I would probably aim at 60.

This again? Just enable FG and be done with numbers. Forever. 

12 hours ago, Sunshine13 said:

Just curious what is the difference to butter smooth performance 30 to 40 frames and 60 to 80 frames butter smooth perforamcne

You don't need to have 60-80 fps in your sim to make it smooth. What you must avoid is the fps ups and downs that produce stutters and kills the immersion. For me, and according to experts, the human eye con only perceive up to 30 fps in the screen, so this number or close to it, is the fps benchmark that I follow given that the value is achievable on both of my systems and does not change very much on a given scenario, so stuttering is almost non-existent.

For the most parts of systems, keeping a constant frame rate close to 60 - 80 in medium and complex scenarios is never achievable.

Edited October 22, 20232 yr by edpatino

2 hours ago, edpatino said:

You don't need to have 60-80 fps in your sim to make it smooth. What you must avoid is the fps ups and downs that produce stutters and kills the immersion. For me, and according to experts, the human eye con only perceive up to 30 fps in the screen, so this number or close to it, is the fps benchmark that I follow given that the value is achievable on both of my systems and does not change very much on a given scenario, so stuttering is almost non-existent.

For the most parts of systems, keeping a constant frame rate close to 60 - 80 in medium and complex scenarios is never achievable.

Great post! And Ed deserves a mic drop moment.     

2 hours ago, edpatino said:

For me, and according to experts, the human eye con only perceive up to 30 fps in the screen, so this number or close to it,

🤦🏻🤦🏻🤦🏻 not this again. 
 

60 fps is not a 'waste'. 120 fps is not a 'waste' (provided you have a 120hz monitor capable of such display). There IS a very noticable difference between 15 fps and 60 fps. Many will say there IS a noticeable difference between 40 and 60 fps. Lastly, the limit of the human eye is NOT as low as 30-60 fps. It's just not.

The origin of the myth: The origin of the myth probably has to do with limitations of television and movies. Movies, when they were recorded on film reel, limited themselves to 24 frames per second for practical purposes. If there is a diminishing return in how many frames people can claim to actually notice, then the visual difference between 24 fps and 60 fps could not justify DOUBLING the amount of film reel required to film a movie.

With the advent of easy digital storage, these limitations are mostly arbitrary anymore.

The numbers often cited as the mythological "maximum" the eye can see are 30 fps, 40 fps, and 60 fps.

I would guess the 60 fps "eye-seeing" limit comes from the fact that most PC monitors (and indeed many televisions now) have a maximum refresh rate of 60hz (or 60 frames per second). If a monitor has that 60 fps limit, the monitor is physically incapable of displaying more than 60 fps. This is one of the purposes of frame limiting, Vsync and adjusting refresh rate in video games.

tl;dr: The human eye can physiologically detect up to 1000 frames per second. The average human, tasked with detecting what framerate he/she is looking at, can accurately guess up to around 150 fps. That is, they can see the difference in framerates all the way to 150 fps.

 

 

2 hours ago, edpatino said:

For the most parts of systems, keeping a constant frame rate close to 60 - 80 in medium and complex scenarios is never achievable.

Yes it is. It’s possible even in heavy scenarios using FG.

 

 

Edited October 22, 20232 yr by Ianrivaldosmith