SimWorks Studios Pilatus PC-12 released

[jon b 2,050]

3 hours ago, aamd80 said:

Flew this plane for 5 years and have over 3000 hours on it.

Ah good, a subject matter expert. 👍
I wonder what your thoughts are on how the simulation handles turns ? I’m having to use way more rudder than I’d expect to get the slip ball centred in a turn, and am constantly having to trim out rudder one way then the other, it’s a constant battle.

[jcomm 5,939]

31 minutes ago, jon b said:

Ah good, a subject matter expert. 👍
I wonder what your thoughts are on how the simulation handles turns ? I’m having to use way more rudder than I’d expect to get the slip ball centred in a turn, and am constantly having to trim out rudder one way then the other, it’s a constant battle.

I was totally unaware of this feature (ruder-aileron interconnectsystem) and Ido not own the PC-12 for MFS, but the fact that such a system is installed should for itself make turns rather "feet on floor" contrarily to what you're experiencing jon

From the aircraft operations manual we can get:

"An aileron/rudder interconnect system is installed to improve lateral stability and turn coordination. The system operates:

• MSN 101-683. When a turn is initiated with the flaps extended

• MSN 684 & UP. Permanently active regardless of the flap position

When the pilot initiates a turn by giving a roll control input, the spring package in the interconnect systems applies a force to the rudder cables that tends to deflect the rudder in the direction of the turn. Alternatively, when the pilot gives a yaw control input by pushing one of the rudder pedals, the spring package applies a force to the aileron control system which tends to roll the aircraft in the direction of turn"

[Jazz 1,046]

8 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

I'm not saying there should not be tweaked, but when you say something modeled incorrectly you probably know how real PC-12 flies? 

Or there is the application of common sense. The plane may fly nicely when up there but just from watching videos I can see something is wildly off with the transition from ground to air and air to ground.

You don't need to have flown it to see that this aspect of the model has issues. Quite serious ones from what I have seen. You just don't.

[Ron Lefebvre 113]

I finally bought it. Barely flown it so I will not comment on that aspect, except to say taking off is very very different and must MUST watch your speed on the ground

The aircraft is lovely as expected.

The panels are the most high definition I have seen so far. Really really like that. Better then all other payware GA planes (TBM, SFR, Cessnas Baron, comanche)

The view out the windshield is surprisingly (to me) good. Not claustrophobic at all as I feared.

I though it would fly like the TBM and FSR, but it does not. This plane flies heavy and is slow to respond. Much more like when you fly an airliner.

Uses both the 650 AND the 750 TDS GTNXI and that for me is a big winner. I wish the TBM and comanche did that.

Ron

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Ron Lefebvre

[pete_auau 1,163]

to those  who  believe  there  is  a issue on  take off  watch  and  listen  at the  1:01 , real pilot overseeing  the  proceedures

 

[Beagle12 140]

On 12/6/2023 at 7:36 PM, jon b said:

this barrage of top quality aircraft never end ?

Yeah Same Here !!!

[Jazz 1,046]

6 minutes ago, pete_auau said:

to those  who  believe  there  is  a issue on  take off  watch  and  listen  at the  1:01 , real pilot overseeing  the  proceedures

 

I've seen it and having watched the entire thing it's clear to me that he knows some compromises have been made and it isn't really correct in the transitions between take off and landing. If you doubt something is wrong then read what the chap with 5 years and 3000 thousand hours in it says a few posts up. He confirmed exactly what I deduced from what I have seen. There are other issues with this plane that become obvious when watching that video from start to finish.

I'm really looking forward to this plane and I will buy it but not until I think it's behaving sensibly during the phases of flight that I enjoy the most.

They'll get there, I'm sure.

 

[Ron Lefebvre 113]

23 minutes ago, pete_auau said:

to those  who  believe  there  is  a issue on  take off  watch  and  listen  at the  1:01 , real pilot overseeing  the  proceedures

 

Thanks for that. I edited my post on ground handling.

 

Ron

[chapstick 2,758]

I'm sorry, but what is the point we're trying to draw from this video? The takeoff and landings looked awful. 

[qqwertz 782]

14 minutes ago, chapstick said:

I'm sorry, but what is the point we're trying to draw from this video? The takeoff and landings looked awful. 

I think it is:

- rotate around 80 Kts during takeoff to avoid a sudden transition between the MSFS ground model and the MSFS flight model. The pilot in the video did not.

- set your trims properly before touchdown to avoid sudden swaying of the airplane. The pilot in the video did not.

My first flight with the SWS PC-12 was really awful, I couldn't believe just how bad the flight model was. Then I started to read the manual and take the finer details more seriously. Now I love this plane and have no problems to properly take off or land.

Peter

[sd_flyer 6,049]

4 hours ago, Jazz said:

Or there is the application of common sense. The plane may fly nicely when up there but just from watching videos I can see something is wildly off with the transition from ground to air and air to ground.

You don't need to have flown it to see that this aspect of the model has issues. Quite serious ones from what I have seen. You just don't.

Here another opinion  from discord :

 

It’s definitely not a difficult airplane to fly IRL. It does require rudder though, you can’t get away with feet on the floor and poor crosswind technique. I didn’t have any problems in the simulated version. That being said, I do feel like this version requires more rudder inputs compared to the real deal. It’s not an insane amount and different hardware setups can make that highly subjective. Also the behavior on T/O roll if you leave it on the ground past 80 knots is definitely not how the real plane flies. BUT in normal operations you should NEVER be that fast on the T/O roll. So with the SWS PC-12 if you fly it within limits it absolutely behaves realistically and from what I’ve observed in communications from their team that was the intended scope of the project. There might be some subtle tweaks that could be made but I’m convinced that this is the most accurate a PC-12 given the MSFS physics models limitations. Landings feel really good other than MSFS’ terrible ground effect modeling. I just did a flaps 15 approach screaming in at 140 until a short final as if I had jet traffic landing behind me. Just like in the real plane I chopped the power when I thought was right and I rode it in with the nose up trim held until the AOA came alive. Flaps 40 and 30 maybe feel a little floatier if you carry extra speed but if you come in on AOA and don’t hold it off of the ground like you should also do in real life it’s perfectly reasonable. I only have about 4 hours in the simulated version so far so my opinions should be taken for exactly what they’re worth and could even change as I get more time in. Also my hardware setup is definitely above average and I’ll mention again that everything I’ve touched on is subjective.

[Jazz 1,046]

19 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

Here another opinion  from discord

Another opinion that agrees with mine.

[vrdubin6 184]

I fully understand WHY this is happening. I get that the aircraft is making a transition from ground to air physics. I guess my main question is why this isn't an issue on literally any other plane in the sim? Yes, it is manageable if you are aware of it and really pay attention to your rotation speed, but even in Overkill's video it starts violently veering off the runway at about 70-75 knots. I love the plane otherwise and I've had a few great flights so far. Once they can dial in that ground to air transition this will be one of my favorites. 

[qqwertz 782]

9 minutes ago, vrdubin6 said:

 I guess my main question is why this isn't an issue on literally any other plane in the sim? 

I had the same effect happening with other airplanes as well, in particular when landing or departing with crosswind. The PC-12 certainly has a stronger tendency to sway, but it is not unique. I guess the difference is the torque generated by its powerful engine. 

I assume that the main problem is that, on the ground, you have friction forces between tires and runway. Those forces are proportional to a so-called normal force, which is reduced as the lift force increases. The transition between ground and flight model seems to be too sudden and not as gradual as it would happen with a real airplane.

If I was a developer, I would maybe play with the tire friction coefficient in the model and reduce it depending on the speed of the aircraft. That could provide a work-around.

[psychedelic_tortilla 170]

double post, pls ignore

Edited December 8, 2023 by psychedelic_tortilla