Thanks everyone.  I guess it's both things, sensitivity may not be optimized and it's the sim itself.  When people have comment on "ground handling" I had always assumed they meant during taxi (!), but I guess it's after the plane lands is what is referred to.  Yes having been at it for 30y now landings in anything were always intuitive and easy when conditions were reasonably benign.  I'll play with dead zone and sensitivities.  All landings aren't bad at all but yes, it's the tendency for me to overdo it with the flare, to pitch up way farther than I need to sometimes, then float too long and it's not a happy thing!

I find with airliners as I approach the runway I start to float and I have to apply downward pressure to stay on the glideslope.  Often I overdo it and end up with too high of a descent rate…not an issue I had in P3D and one I have yet to really figure out in MSFS.  Maybe it’s an attempt at ground effect?  It starts pretty high though to all be ground effect.

4 hours ago, AJZip said:

It's probably of no help, but to answer @Noel 's specific request, these are my settings for the yoke (Honeycomb Alpha).  It surprised me because I thought I'd fiddled about with them quite a bit - but these look like default to me... 

I flew and landed the FBW32NX a number of times yesterday and do not recall any issues with flare out.  I generally turn off autothrottle at around 1000' and autopilot off at around 300'.

The flare-out was uneventful for all flights.  I also flew the Just Flight Avro Vulcan and did half a dozen landings with that - again I was able to ride the ground effect to a smooth touch down.

The Honeycomb yoke has notoriously strong springs, which is a disadvantage in some circumstances - but whether that helps in this instance I'm not sure.  But your TCA Boeing is a fine bit of kit and so I wouldn't have thought that would be a factor.

  

Thank you for posting that as soon as I get under 8k AGL I will pause and have a look.  I think way back when I read about these settings the one called REACTIVITY was supposed to simulate inertia, or more accurately, how QUICKLY the plane responds to inputs.  Maybe I need to drop that down I think I might have been at 100% too.

13 hours ago, Noel said:

...in MSFS versus FSX/P3D?  Is it the flight dynamics?  Or maybe it's the sensitivities for my yoke?  If you don't mind if you're happy w/ your sensitivity settings for PMDG 73x or FBW 320NX could you grab a screen shot for me?  I'm guessing it's more the sensitivities but it may help to contrast mine w/ someone who feels great about theirs.

Thanks in advance

Hey Noel,

I recently just switched my honeycomb yoke out for the for the Boeing yoke, I also have the airbus side stick which I used to use for the Fenix A320, but yesterday I spent some time dialling in the new yoke came and across the following video. I didn’t have to go as far on the sensitivity curve, but the two initial flights I did were way more precise, I think I ended up with -50% on the roll access and -20% on the pitch access. It definitely made a big difference on landing as the controls are way more precise, I also found myself hand flying up to around flight level 200, and was able to follow the flight directors precisely. I know it’s not that realistic flying an airbus with a yoke, but man I love this thing.

this video might be worth taking a look at as Gavin is a real world airbus pilot and puts out some nice videos

some people have also had good results changing the extremity dead zone curve, this still creates a linear curve, but it will also limit some of the full deflection of the flight controls, which in most situations doesn’t cause an issue. I might also give this a try today and see how it compares to the curve I currently have. 

 

 

Edited January 14, 20242 yr by RJC68

4 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I sincerely hope that a fix for the over sensitive ground handling is provided in MSFS 2020. I do not think that we should have to upgrade to MSFS 2024 to get this resolved.

A partial backport of the ground handling rework in 2024 is coming to 2020 via SU15, so let's see .. see transcript of last Q&A https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/november-dev-stream-2023-transcription/619372 (click on the "Ground Handling in SU15" link on the subtopics list on the right side)
 

5 minutes ago, RJC68 said:

Hey Noel,

I recently just switched my honeycomb yoke out for the for the Boeing yoke, I also have the airbus side stick which I used to use for the Fenix A320, but yesterday I spent some time dialling in the new yoke came and across the following video. I didn’t have to go as far on the sensitivity curve, but the two initial flights I did were way more precise, I think I ended up with -50% on the roll access and -20% on the pitch access. It definitely made a big difference on landing as the controls are way more precise, I also found myself hand flying up to around flight level 200, and was able to follow the flight directors precisely. I know it’s not that realistic flying an airbus with a yoke, but man I love this thing.

Awesome thank you so much!  I love this yoke too and was puzzled why I've had troubles with it (just like I did w/ the Saitek before it!) and just didn't give enough attention to sensitivities.  Can't wait to test this and will as soon as I drop down below 8K AGL so I can avoid the blithering pause penalty in APL.

Thanks!!!!!

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Thank you for posting that as soon as I get under 8k AGL I will pause and have a look.  I think way back when I read about these settings the one called REACTIVITY was supposed to simulate inertia, or more accurately, how QUICKLY the plane responds to inputs.  Maybe I need to drop that down I think I might have been at 100% too.

Sensitivity isn't even what you want to adjust. It introduces curves into the flight controls, meaning you'll get more surface deflection with the same distance of increasing the yoke deflection at later stages than initially, which is entirely unrealistic. Real flight controls are linear, not a curve. Instead, use extremity dead zone and reactivity to adjust your controls but keep them linear.

Edited January 14, 20242 yr by threegreen

5 minutes ago, threegreen said:

Sensitivity isn't even what you want to adjust. It introduces curves into the flight controls, meaning you'll get more surface deflection with the same rate of increasing the flight control deflection at later stages than initially, which is entirely unrealistic. Real flight controls are linear, not a curve. Instead, use extremity dead zone and reactivity to adjust your controls but keep them linear.

Which is also what I mentioned,

At the end of the day we all have different hardware setups and most of us are not real world pilots so we do not really know what feels realistic. I tried the settings in the video which was posted by a real world Airbus pilot and it did make for a very good experience. I am going to try the extremity dead zones as well. It is all about finding what works for your individual setup

30 minutes ago, threegreen said:

Sensitivity isn't even what you want to adjust. It introduces curves into the flight controls, meaning you'll get more surface deflection with the same distance of increasing the yoke deflection at later stages than initially, which is entirely unrealistic. Real flight controls are linear, not a curve. Instead, use extremity dead zone and reactivity to adjust your controls but keep them linear.

So you're thinking just hit the sensitivities reset buttons to set them to linear, then only use EDZ and reactivity.  What kind of reactivity values work for you with FBW and/or PMDG?

I followed Rob's -50/-20, but did 20% EDZ and 80% reactivity and it was better I'm pretty sure.  It will take some more time to relearn though the new settings.

 

9 minutes ago, Noel said:

So you're thinking just hit the sensitivities reset buttons to set them to linear, then only use EDZ and reactivity.  What kind of reactivity values work for you with FBW and/or PMDG?

I followed Rob's -50/-20, but did 20% EDZ and 80% reactivity and it was better I'm pretty sure.  It will take some more time to relearn though the new settings.

 

I am trying this rught now,

reset all the sliders and try extremity dead zone on the roll axis at 50% and 25% on the pitch axis with a 3% deadzone on both. LEave sensitivity on zero

On my 2nd circuit in the Fenix

Edited January 14, 20242 yr by RJC68

 

1 hour ago, Noel said:

The Honeycomb yoke has notoriously strong springs, which is a disadvantage in some circumstances - but whether that helps in this instance I'm not sure.

I just did another flight with the FBW320 (after the latest update, it's a corker, btw) and took particular note of the flare out.  It was fine - but I am pretty certain now that the, er, 'enthusiastically strong' springs of the Honeycomb yoke really does make a difference.  There is so much pull resistance on the yoke that it keeps the nose-up in check.  I reckon without this I would probably be porpoising all the way down the runway most times with my present settings.  

Edited January 14, 20242 yr by AJZip

1 hour ago, regis9 said:

I find with airliners as I approach the runway I start to float and I have to apply downward pressure to stay on the glideslope.  Often I overdo it and end up with too high of a descent rate…not an issue I had in P3D and one I have yet to really figure out in MSFS.  Maybe it’s an attempt at ground effect?  It starts pretty high though to all be ground effect.

In the real world, this is what you should feel from ground effect and this is what I tune/adjust flight models for. Traditionally, an aircraft enters ground effect at about half of it's wing span. Procedurally, you are normally approaching at REF plus 5. Most jets will have you aim to bleed that 5 knots crossing the threshold. The first thing you notice as you bleed the 5 knots, is the requirement for more back pressure. You are looking at 1 degree of pitch change for every 5 knots of speed change. Not only will you need more back pressure to maintain trajectory, you will also need an increase of a degree in pitch. Most will retrim for this change and others who like a loaded yoke may not. The next thing you will notice as you enter ground effect is that the nose wants to drop. Again, you are looking at the need for more back pressure to maintain trajectory. Ground effect equates to about a gradual 200 to 300 feet per minute decrease in sink rate. Notice I said gradually, it's not instant. As you reach your target flare height and start to round out with a 2 to 3 degree pitch change and hold it, the aircraft continues to sink until you fly it onto the runway. In reality, you will touch down very close to your aimpoint with a text book flare. For the fly by wire aircraft, the system starts to introduce nose down trim to simulate that back pressure required due to speed loss and ground effect. Text book flares are slightly firm. So as you can imagine from what I stated, you will have back pressure and maintain back pressure to hold that 2 to 3 degree pitch change until touch down. When people over flare, it's because something isn't right.

You may be intentionally carrying extra speed. For example, a G550 has a large wing span and is very slick so it loves to stay in the air during landing. If I am carrying extra speed due to gust corrections, I'm not getting rid of it. I will never have time to bleed it all. In fact, by 100 feet AGL, my throttles need to be at idle. All that I can do in that jet is to routinely continue bringing it down to the 20 feet call out and add no more than 2 degrees of pitch change. If I am carrying extra speed due to gust corrections, I am going to be slight on the pitch change. The other reason people get into the over flare situation is because they are working on that GREASER! People get down to that target flare height and start pumping that yoke/stick in attempt to keep that sink rate at the minimum until touch down. This wastes runway and put you in tail strike territory. You are better off doing a slow power pull and landing with a little power on. In fact, natural greasers have to be worked at. Since text book flares are a little firm, people come up with all types of techniques to grease it on instead of working on timing with the flare. In the DC10, I saw all types of techniques to grease it on. Some would add 3 to 4 degrees of pitch change. Some would do the ol power on landings. I have even watched peeps try to set it down on one main and then roll it on. All of those techniques lead to bad habits or issues. From my experience, once you become an instructor/training captain, your focus is on the text boot flare, being on aimpoint, centerline and within the first third of the runway. You don't even critique slightly to firm landings.

Now, there is something with the sim's flight model and there has always been an issue. Developers have to design around these issues. Armed with the information I gave you, you maybe able to adjust aircraft flight models and adjust your controls until you capture the true behavior. It's possible, I have done it myself.

Rick         

2 hours ago, G550flyer said:

In the real world, this is what you should feel from ground effect and this is what I tune/adjust flight models for. Traditionally, an aircraft enters ground effect at about half of it's wing span. Procedurally, you are normally approaching at REF plus 5. Most jets will have you aim to bleed that 5 knots crossing the threshold. The first thing you notice as you bleed the 5 knots, is the requirement for more back pressure. You are looking at 1 degree of pitch change for every 5 knots of speed change. Not only will you need more back pressure to maintain trajectory, you will also need an increase of a degree in pitch. Most will retrim for this change and others who like a loaded yoke may not. The next thing you will notice as you enter ground effect is that the nose wants to drop. Again, you are looking at the need for more back pressure to maintain trajectory. Ground effect equates to about a gradual 200 to 300 feet per minute decrease in sink rate. Notice I said gradually, it's not instant. As you reach your target flare height and start to round out with a 2 to 3 degree pitch change and hold it, the aircraft continues to sink until you fly it onto the runway. In reality, you will touch down very close to your aimpoint with a text book flare. For the fly by wire aircraft, the system starts to introduce nose down trim to simulate that back pressure required due to speed loss and ground effect. Text book flares are slightly firm. So as you can imagine from what I stated, you will have back pressure and maintain back pressure to hold that 2 to 3 degree pitch change until touch down. When people over flare, it's because something isn't right.

. You don't even critique slightly to firm landings.

Now, there is something with the sim's flight model and there has always been an issue. Developers have to design around these issues. Armed with the information I gave you, you maybe able to adjust aircraft flight models and adjust your controls until you capture the true behavior. It's possible, I have done it myself.

Rick         

Rick, awesome and useful overview thank you.  Without getting as detailed and technical that is what it felt like I was doing for years in the other sims if not by accident because it is what works!  But my landings often now are characterized by over-flare--pulling the nose up too far too quickly, and then having to depend too much on ground effect (which I take to mean comes from higher air pressure between plane and runway as the plane gets closer to TD).  IOW, nothing like what the plane does when it auto lands! 

>>>Procedurally, you are normally approaching at REF plus 5...

I've been aiming for REF plus 2 or at the threshold typically.  I should go up to 5 yes for average conditions, yes?

>>>the requirement for more back pressure...

I assume that means back on the yoke?  Or lifting the nose up causing backward pressure on the plane.  This could be really useful for me if you can possibly expound on this: I'm very unclear on how much travel I should expect to have of my TM Boeing Pendulum yoke, which rotates from midpoint to fully back at the pivot axis maybe around 25 degrees--but since it's a long pendulum actual hand travel is about 4" at the middle of the handles where you place your palms.  So of the 4" of travel backwards possible, how far might it need to be pulled back to create that 2-3 degrees of pitch up initially?   

>>>You don't even critique slightly to firm landings.

This is part the problem for me.  I'm using two programs that capture and score my landings and FIRM gets you dinged points!  

>>>...you maybe able to adjust aircraft flight models and adjust your controls until you capture the true behavior. It's possible, I have done it myself.

How about a peek at your sensitivities in MSFS? if you're using MSFS that is  ;O)

I think you've already helped me a great deal thanks for that! 

 

15 hours ago, martinboehme said:

I think you'll get better results if you put the complete question in the topic title.

Or maybe people shoud give people the courtesy to read the opening post completely before answering...

Ok we're now at linear, EDZ +20%.  After watching this video became convinced to lower reactivity to 60 or lower.  Can't wait til my next landing!  I will hand fly a little more as well to test the air.

MSFS - The Definitive Solution to Your Twitchy Plane Problems (youtube.com)

Edited January 14, 20242 yr by Noel