Can you see the difference between 30fps and 60fps?

[Cpt_Piett 4,730]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

The perception of smooth animation at lower frame rates is intimately tied to frame time variance.

Also at higher frame rates, same concept applies. Like I mentioned not long ago in this thread, I value low FTV higher than high FPS, in almost all situations. If I can get that frame time graph as flat as possible, I’ll sacrifice TLODs and AI traffic to get there. 

I won’t however try to run at 120 FPS as I don’t see any benefit of doing so. But who knows, maybe in 10 years my opinion on this will have changed. 

1 hour ago, Noel said:

I've always maintained there is an inverse relationship between FTV and rate:  the higher the rate, the less critical FTV perfection becomes.  Early on I stated "brute force" could overcome poor FTV, and I fully believe that is what is happening with many or most Frame Generation users, except for myself and CptPiett and a few others, who adopted my method of improving FTV.

That’s interesting. Even more interesting will be if your opinion on this will change after getting your 7800X3D rig ready.

I’ll still stand by my above comment: FTV matters as much to me at 70 FPS as it does on lower FPS. I can clearly tell the difference, and when in doubt I just bring up the RTSS overlay (using the hotkey that you suggested a while back - btw I also use a hotkey for FPS lock on/off, very useful).

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Not at all--panning is still excellent in itself, jerk-free

This is contrary to my observations, and what I failed to demonstrate in my video. The benefit of 60+ FPS becomes obvious the faster things move - fast panning, fast flying at low altitude etc. Sitting in the A300 flight deck at FL380 looking out the window, it’s impossible to tell the difference. 

In this video I tried to get the best of both worlds - TLOD up to 975 at 65 FPS while flying at very low altitude at 300+ kts. Which isn’t possible, at least not with my hardware. I could lower the TLOD and the distant terrain won’t look so good, lower FPS but then the fast movement will start to look jerky. Anyway, there’s a lot of micro-stutters in that video even though FPS is quite high i.e. poor frame time consistency. 

Edited April 3 by Cpt_Piett

[bobcat999 8,485]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

I only "went on about" your comment comparing your 30, over his 30, nothing more, nothing less.  Further, if you look at my screen, when panning slowly or rapidly I don't believe you would call that "jerky".  It may be with how you're setup, but not here.  And yes I acknowledge the clear downside of lower frame rates in terms of objects at point blank range being effectively 'stretched' as it were with faster panning actions.   Back in FSX/P3D days I struggled to maintain a rate of 30, and THAT 30, is nowhere near as quality as the current 30 with ultra low FTV.  I can tell the difference between 30, and even 34. Once at 38 or above, sterling FTV, going up beyond that is visible still (a little less "stretch w/ panning"), but doesn't add enough to put up with artifacts out of FG for me.

Edited - Deleted response.
 

Edited April 3 by bobcat999

[AnkH 2,271]

31 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Also at higher frame rates, same concept applies. Like I mentioned not long ago in this thread, I value low FTV higher than high FPS, in almost all situations. If I can get that frame time graph as flat as possible, I’ll sacrifice TLODs and AI traffic to get there. 

I won’t however try to run at 120 FPS as I don’t see any benefit of doing so.

While the sim feels and looks jerky when sitting on Inibuilds KJFK with just roughly reaching 30FPS, it seems perfectly smooth using FG doubling those 30FPS up to 60, most probably simply because FTV going from 25 to 35 FPS is noticable while 50 to 70 is less noticable. Another doubling, jumping between 100 and 140FPS, it would be even less noticable. 

Behind this lies (imho) the fact that if you get 25FPS, this equals a novel image every 40ms, going up to 35FPS means an image every 28ms. This 12ms "lag" is just more noticable than the 6ms "lag" at 50 vs. 70FPS and even more noticable than the 3ms "lag" between 100 and 140FPS

Means: yes, higher FPS do indeed compensate for bad FTV. In reality, FTV does not even increase linear as in my example, but more like when running at 120FPS, the FPS do not jump between 100 and 140, but only between 110 and 130FPS, reducing the "lag" further down to only 1.4ms. Hardly noticable. 

[Luis Hernandez 574]

With a G-sync compatible monitor and G-sync enabled? YES, BUT... that's because, in my rig, LFC kicks in at 30 FPS. So, basically, you're not seeing a change from 30 FPS to 29 FPS, but from 30 to 58... and that kills any ultralow FTV and any immersion you may have. I understand this is not a problem with a true G-sync monitor (the ones that can sync down to 1 Hz), but I'm not sure. Also, somehow G-sync is consuming some CPU cycles, and I can never get a flat frametime curve.

Last night I tried disabling G-sync and well, those 30 FPS were a lot smoother, with no frametime variation at all. The frametime curve was a perfectly flat line. I tested in both the Nvidia pendulum demo and P3D v4. I have yet to try in MSFS.While the results in the other sim are promising, there's still the camera transition issue in MSFS.

And for the record, while I can see the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS, the difference is more tolerable (as long as these 30 FPS are with G-sync disabled). Now I want an actual 1080/1440 G-sync monitor.

Edited April 3 by Luis Hernandez

[Cpt_Piett 4,730]

1 hour ago, AnkH said:

Behind this lies (imho) the fact that if you get 25FPS, this equals a novel image every 40ms, going up to 35FPS means an image every 28ms. This 12ms "lag" is just more noticable than the 6ms "lag" at 50 vs. 70FPS and even more noticable than the 3ms "lag" between 100 and 140FPS

Means: yes, higher FPS do indeed compensate for bad FTV. In reality, FTV does not even increase linear as in my example, but more like when running at 120FPS, the FPS do not jump between 100 and 140, but only between 110 and 130FPS, reducing the "lag" further down to only 1.4ms. Hardly noticable. 

That's an excellent explanation. Which will make me amend my previous statement, in reply to @Noel's comment. FTV matters less the higher FPS is. It still matters at 70 FPS though (which is my current FPS-lock). 

Quote

70 FG-FPS = 14.3ms
35 "native" FPS = 28.6ms

Just arrived at iniBuild's Heathrow ILS 27L on the Lambourne initial approach which involves overflying PG/Orbx-London CBD at 3500ft at 180kts - frametime graph completely flat with FPS RTSS-locked at 70. Caveat - without AI traffic. TLOD 150 reducing to 100 at 1000ft using AutoFPS in AutoTLOD mode.

This is NOT for bragging rights - I bet anyone with a RTX40-series GPU (probably also RTX30-series with FG mod) and a "decent" CPU can do this. 

Edited April 3 by Cpt_Piett

[Noel 4,513]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

FTV matters less the higher FPS is

It's what I've stated all along.

[turbomax 3,288]

7 hours ago, threexgreen said:

1) Does a 4090 make that much of a difference in VR?

2) Do you fly GA or

3) airliners

4) out of big airports?

yes

yes

rarely

rarely

[Noel 4,513]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Even more interesting will be if your opinion on this will change after getting your 7800X3D rig ready.

Which, "on this"?  I think the "artifacts" described *should* resolve w/ the new CPU.  What I'm dobutful about is 2-screen problem.  Near as I can tell no way that will resolve.   And as I've said if I can maintain a rate of 45 or greater, w/o FG, I'll be more than happy w/ the 7800X3D.  With perfect FTV and a rate of 45, there's not a whole lot of need to increase rate.   I'm certain I'll easily hit 45 in any plane anywhere.

There are also other sources of lack of perfection and I'm never sure what to attribute those to.  I can have major CPU main thread, GPU and VRAM headroom and yet get the odd stutter here and there.   And this varies greatly by flight.  Sometimes never a single stutter, other times some occasional ones.  Hopefully the better CPU reduces these but TBH they're already minimal.

[RJC68 823]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

I’ll still stand by my above comment: FTV matters as much to me at 70 FPS as it does on lower FPS

100% agree with you there Captain !!

Even FTV is important at any FPS setting, I have shown it many times on here before. Locked 80fps with FG and zero artifacts = a sublime experience. You need to have evenly matched hardware for it to happen though.

30 fps on a 55 inch 120Hz 4K TV is a horrible vomit and headache inducing mess 

[threexgreen 3,142]

44 minutes ago, turbomax said:

yes

Okay shut up. Don't make me buy one... 

[sonny147 579]

too late for me , ive got a TCL 120 hz coming tomorrow 😐

[sonny147 579]

what are they on about FTV ?, too tired to read the whole thread 

[RJC68 823]

8 minutes ago, sonny147 said:

what are they on about FTV ?, too tired to read the whole thread 

It means "Frame Time Variance" it is basically the timing between each frame. The more consistent it is the smoother the experience in the sim will be. For any given hardware setup if you make adjustments to the settings accordingly you can get a consistent FTV even at lower fps although having a low fps with a consistent FTV may help to eliminate stutters it is not so good on a large display such as a TV as I described in a post above.

Hope this helps

Edited April 3 by RJC68

[bobcat999 8,485]

14 minutes ago, sonny147 said:

too late for me , ive got a TCL 120 hz coming tomorrow 😐

Lucky B!    Which one?  55 inch?

Edit:  Just noticed I crossed with Richard.

FTV = Frame Time Variance, or roughly speaking the amount of time it takes for your PC to render a complete frame, which can vary depending on complexity of course.
Some think the holy grail is to get them paced out equally to get the best in smoothness even if you have lower frame rates.   A bit obvious really, but not that important if you can just power through it.

So I am not too concerned with it.  While it is a useful measure for some struggling for smoothness, if you want to be locked at say 60 fps, and you have the headroom to hit 75 / 80 fps without the 60 lock or vsync, it matters not one iota. 

It all goes out the window at a complex airport with high traffic anyway!  

[sonny147 579]

3 minutes ago, RJC68 said:

It means "Frame Time Variance" it is basically the timing between each frame. The more consistent it is the smoother the experience in the sim will be. For any given hardware setup if you make adjustments to the settings accordingly you can get a consistent FTV even at lower fps although having a low fps with a consistent FTV may help to eliminate stutters it is not so good on a large display such as a TV as I described in a post above.

Hope this helps

oh it does thanks a lot RJC