Can you see the difference between 30fps and 60fps?

[bvdboomen 261]

I am a former demo programmer on the Commodore 64 and Amiga.
The coding was done in Assembly to be sure to be on par with the CTR beam's speed which draws the picture on the screen. To get a smooth experience back in the days with CTR screens, smoothness is dependent on the speed of that beam and the game/demo loop to catch up with its speed. Is it 25/30hz, then 25/30FPS will be enough. Is it 50/60hz, then 50/60FPS is needed. I'm not sure about LCD screens since I stopped coding before they came.

But when I look at 30FPS vs 60FPS with my eyes, I see definitely a difference.

[jarmstro 2,405]

I can't tell any difference between 30fps and 60fps. If you can it's placebo. I can, however, tell if the sim is running smoothly without any stutters. FPS fixation is a status myth perpetrated by those who have paid for the latest tech in order to justify the ridiculous price they have forked out,

[MrBitstFlyer 3,897]

3 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Some people don't understand though.

Erm, yes, most do actually understand, which is different to having a different perception or choice.

3 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

This is not about looking forward out of the cockpit with a fixed view, where there is hardly any noticeable difference then, but there is when panning around. 
I have a head tracker so I need 60 FPS when panning around or it is simply too jerky / stuttery.

I have a Tobii Eytracker, but do not find it jerky when panning around at 30fps.  Can I see the difference between 30 & 40 fps - yes.  Am I personally bothered by the slight difference - no, not at the expense of lowering settings.  I think the sweet spot for me is 38fps. Above that, I see very little difference in smoothness of movement.  However, I think it important to recognise the massive difference we all have in Pc system specs, our ages and our vision differences as noted in this thread.

Since @Noel introduced the subject of frame time variance, I find concentrating on getting that consistent is more important for me than chasing fps.  For example, I can run the FG mod and run at 60fps with smooth frame times, but I can also run at 30fps with smooth frame times without the drawbacks of the mod.  I do not find panning with my Tobii eyetracker jerky at all at 30fps.

I find it rather odd that people will read this and still insist I am somehow wrong in my statement - I can see the difference between 30 & 38fps in MSFS but little above that, but it is not enough of a difference for me to trade settings for those fps.  However, before I understood how movement and panning were so much better with smooth frame times, I WOULD have chased fps.

[Fielder 3,746]

MSFS by default assigns a command called something like Chase View Look Right and Chase View Look Left onto the mouse x axis. I put those same two commands on a hat on my flightstick. In outside (Chase) view if I throw the hat left or right, then the plane spins around very fast and the scenery swirls around.

At 30 it is not completely smooth, it will stutter a little bit.  At 60  fps it's smooth as glass.

 

[Fielder 3,746]

I use that command a lot. I hit the pinkie switch to jump to outside view, push the "ladder hat" right or left to see the scenery all around the plane. At 60 this is a smooth experience. It makes Frame Generation worth the price of a 4000 card.

[Bunchy 227]

3 hours ago, AnkH said:

Doubt it, my wife prefers me not always complaining that my rig is not up to date 🤣 And my wallet? Well, there are hobbies way more expensive than flightsimming 😉

Yep. Wildlife and sports photography! Have you seen the prices of those 400mm and 600mm lenses?...... oh, and you need a camera to stick em on as well! There's a 15 to 20K investment, right there!

Edited April 2 by Bunchy

[bobcat999 8,509]

1 hour ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Erm, yes, most do actually understand, which is different to having a different perception or choice.

I have a Tobii Eytracker, but do not find it jerky when panning around at 30fps.  Can I see the difference between 30 & 40 fps - yes.  Am I personally bothered by the slight difference - no, not at the expense of lowering settings.  I think the sweet spot for me is 38fps. Above that, I see very little difference in smoothness of movement.  However, I think it important to recognise the massive difference we all have in Pc system specs, our ages and our vision differences as noted in this thread.

Since @Noel introduced the subject of frame time variance, I find concentrating on getting that consistent is more important for me than chasing fps.  For example, I can run the FG mod and run at 60fps with smooth frame times, but I can also run at 30fps with smooth frame times without the drawbacks of the mod.  I do not find panning with my Tobii eyetracker jerky at all at 30fps.

I find it rather odd that people will read this and still insist I am somehow wrong in my statement - I can see the difference between 30 & 38fps in MSFS but little above that, but it is not enough of a difference for me to trade settings for those fps.  However, before I understood how movement and panning were so much better with smooth frame times, I WOULD have chased fps.

What is this reply about?  Did you misread my post?  I said some don't understand.  You said most do.  'Most' implies not all, which leaves room for 'some' don't doesn't it?.  There is no massive contradiction between those statements. 

I DO find it jerky when panning at 30 fps, even if you don't.  I thought that is what I said anyway - there is no wrong, as it is just personal perception and opinion, which we know can differ. 
If you are happy with 30 (or 38), all good, which once again, I said in my post.  There is no difference in opinion from what I can see.  Or are there some hairs that need splitting?  

Edited April 2 by bobcat999

[threexgreen 3,157]

3 hours ago, Lonesome Cowboy Burt said:

Kevin, this simplistic test is not really a good analogue for playing a game where you get lag as your input waits for the next frame before showing its result

Subject has been flogged to death in gaming forums and this study really doesnt add anything new

That isn't the point though. It's that, apparently, not everyone is able to see the difference between 30 and 60 FPS, regardless of video games. That's certainly new, at least to me.

[Noel 4,563]

52 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

I DO find it jerky when panning at 30 fps, even if you don't. 

Rob, do you also have ultra low FTV when at 30 fps, proven to yourself w/ some sort of capture software, like CapFrameX, so you know for sure?  Without that, comparing MrBit's 30 fps experience against yours is not going to be apples to apples.  I have ultra low FTV and can emphatically state panning at 30 fps is anything but "jerky".  I too find a frame rate of 38 to be wonderful provided sterling FTV is retained, save as mentioned the known issue of having objects at point blank range from your eye point widen as a function of the lower rate, but that has nothing to do with smooth panning, freedom from jerkiness.

 

[Cpt_Piett 4,833]

1 hour ago, bobcat999 said:

Or are there some hairs that need splitting?

Always! This is Avsim, after all. Hairs cannot be split into tiny enough pieces 😅

I enter this discussion the with utmost caution, as it is the seriousest of Avsim topics, even more so than the dreaded simulated cockpit door discussion (why don't PMDG have it yet?!).  

My 5 cents: the difference is there, I have no trouble discerning it, and it's more pronounced the faster things move. 

I made a quick video in an attempt to show the difference:

 

Edited April 2 by Cpt_Piett

[bobcat999 8,509]

49 minutes ago, Noel said:

Rob, do you also have ultra low FTV when at 30 fps, proven to yourself w/ some sort of capture software, like CapFrameX, so you know for sure?  Without that, comparing MrBit's 30 fps experience against yours is not going to be apples to apples.  I have ultra low FTV and can emphatically state panning at 30 fps is anything but "jerky".  I too find a frame rate of 38 to be wonderful provided sterling FTV is retained, save as mentioned the known issue of having objects at point blank range from your eye point widen as a function of the lower rate, but that has nothing to do with smooth panning, freedom from jerkiness.

 

Noel.  I am not sure what people are going on about here.

I am not saying my 60 fps experience is in any way better than MrBits if he is happy with 30.  How can it be if he is happy.  I am just sharing my experience as asked by the OP. 
I don't know how many times I have to say it.  60 suits me just fine.  I have this dead smooth with no stuttering, 4k ultra, 4080 running cool and quiet and barely breaking 50% utilisation - so all good for me.   If people are happy with 30 that's fine also. 

Once again, I think some people don't understand what is being said.  You can have 30 fps without stuttering, and dead smooth, as you allude to.  It is more about the steps the frames take to cross the screen.

Now say you have a screen that is 30 inches wide (that would be classed as about a 37 inch screen due to the way screen size is measured diagonally).  This is not far off my screen size.

If you pan your viewpoint about 90 degrees to the left on take off, you may see an object such as a PAPI light enter the screen from the right and move to the left as it passes behind you.
Say that object takes one second to enter the screen on the right and pass off the screen to the left.  It only has 30 steps to cross that 30 inch screen in a second at 30 fps. 
That is a jump of one inch every 30th of a second.  A lot of people can see that, even if some profess that they can't.  I certainly can.

At 60fps, the object moves at steps of half an inch per frame instead of jumps of one inch per 30th of a second.  The steps are smaller.  It is simply better for those who are sensitive to movement.

This has nothing to do with smoothness, stuttering, or frame time.  It is simple physics / mathematics and about the steps taken to cross the screen in any given timeframe.

The best answer to the OP would be to say it depends on the individual and their perception - so they need to experiment and see.

Edited April 2 by bobcat999

[Benjamin H 14]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ReM-WTeuCsQ

Ironically just uploaded a shorts to youtube to show someone else how my 2080Ti runs with FG. Changing resolution should show difference between 60 and 25 or 30FPS I guess.

 

Edited April 2 by Benjamin H
Trying to embed in post

[bobcat999 8,509]

25 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Always! This is Avsim, after all. Hairs cannot be split into tiny enough pieces 😅

I enter this discussion the with utmost caution, as it is the seriousest of Avsim topics, even more so than the dreaded simulated cockpit door discussion (why don't PMDG have it yet?!).  

My 5 cents: the difference is there, I have no trouble discerning it, and it's more pronounced the faster things move. 

I made a quick video in an attempt to show the difference:...

For heavens sake Captain!  Don't dare to be logical and scientific!  

I can also easily see the difference in your video (look at the cones and wingtip). 
But it makes no difference because the ones not able to see the difference in the sim, all things being equal, probably wont be able to see the difference in the video due to their difference in personal visual perception.

The difference is more noticeable when it is with linear movement anyway. 
Try holding a 90 degree look to the left out of the cockpit while taking off and it is more easily apparent I think as the ground / runway speeds by in either 30Hz or 60Hz jumps / steps. 

Also, if they have their monitors set to 30Hz they have no chance!  

Edited April 2 by bobcat999

[simbol 5,832]

What about fake frames?? surely with Nvidia fake frames generation snake oil this debate could be put to rest...

 

*RUNS FOR COVER*

[s0cks 135]

This topic always makes me laugh. I would get your eyes checked if you can't tell the difference imo. And I say that as someone who has no choice but to run the sim @ 30fps if i want it to look pretty. 30fps is fine for me, and I even use head tracking. But there is a fairly obvious difference between 30 and 60. One day I'll upgrade my GPU so I can run it at 60, but for now I'm happy with 30 and waiting to see what MSFS2024 and nVidia brings to the table at the end of the year.

Edited April 2 by s0cks