4 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

You are really struggling with this. The article was written in 89. Why would they (sociologists mind you, not engineers or even wiki knights) include XP when it hadn't been created yet?

It was written in 1989. Simulation games were in their infancy. The time is irrelevant. It was a discussion about whether simulation games could be used for training. Today it is commonplace to use them for training. P3D, Xplane, etc

The physics and 3D graphics got more sophisticated but are still video games that are used seriously by pilots and home simmers.

10 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Sometimes they are. Valid sources get deleted all the time simply because someone doesn't 'like' it. Wiki isn't fact. Sometimes it contains them though.

If valid sources are deleted, then you can't verify it. If valid sources exist, then it can be verified. It is that simple.

1 minute ago, brinx said:

still video games

To you it certainly is.

11 minutes ago, brinx said:

For some reason there are users in flight simulation that think flight simulation is somehow special.

The one thing they all have in common is that they are video games.

For some reasons there are users who still don't see the big difference, although we provided all informations for them to learn it. Not sure what it brings to keep denying it. Let's simply ask some random KI:

"Are flight simulatoprs running on a PC similar to other video-games or are they something special?"

Flight simulators on a PC are indeed quite unique compared to regular video games. Here are a few key differences that make them special:

Realism and Accuracy: Flight simulators aim to replicate real-world flying experiences with high precision. They incorporate real-world physics, weather conditions, and geography. The aircraft in flight simulators are modeled to behave like their real-world counterparts.

Training and Education: Many flight simulators are used for pilot training and educational purposes. They can help pilots practice and maintain their skills without the risks and costs associated with actual flying.

Hardware and Controls: Flight simulators often support specialized hardware such as yokes, joysticks, rudder pedals, and throttle quadrants. These controls provide a more immersive and realistic experience compared to standard game controllers.

Complexity: The level of detail and complexity in flight simulators is typically much higher than in regular video games. This includes detailed cockpit instrumentation, navigation systems, and flight procedures.

Community and Add-ons: There is a dedicated community of flight simulation enthusiasts who create and share add-ons, such as new aircraft models, airports, and scenery enhancements. This adds to the depth and customization options available in flight simulators.

So, while flight simulators do share some similarities with video games, their focus on realism, accuracy, and educational value sets them apart.

5 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Special? Where are you getting that from? That's a rather emotional response. 

I'll quote myself to avoid repeating myself.

24 minutes ago, brinx said:

I don't see people arguing about whether a racing simulator is a game. It simulates tire traction, wet/icy roads, suspension, engine wear among many other things. For some reason there are users in flight simulation that think flight simulation is somehow special.

 

9 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

I've lost track of the number of times I've dug into XP to test something out (often aside from flight simulation element even) that I then use for IRL work. Very much not recreation/game.

Well, the idea is to apply real-world physics to make the game a realistic simulation. If there is some concept that you can use outside of the simulator, that is not surprising at all.

3 minutes ago, brinx said:

I'll quote myself to avoid repeating myself.

Said the snake eating its own tail.

5 minutes ago, brinx said:

outside of the simulator

Yay! You got it right!!

2 minutes ago, brinx said:

I don't see people arguing about whether a racing simulator is a game.

First see my comment above, even Bing KI sonfirms that flight-simulators running on a PC sets them apart. I hope that won't upset you.

Regarding your question: there is simple and obvious difference. The real conterpart exist to win, the real conterpart of a flight-simulator isn't made to win. If you had a simulator simulating only flying-races, then it would be closer to a game because it would have the purpose to win resp. to get rewarded. Not so XP.

21 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

"Are flight simulatoprs running on a PC similar to other video-games or are they something special?"

It doesn't matter where it runs. It is still a video game. Where it runs does not change what it is.

21 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

For some reasons there are users who still don't see the big difference, although we provided all informations for them to learn it. Not sure what it brings to keep denying it. Let's simply ask some random KI:

What information, I'm still waiting?

 

21 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

Training and Education: Many flight simulators are used for pilot training and educational purposes. They can help pilots practice and maintain their skills without the risks and costs associated with actual flying.

Where you use it does not change what it is. I realized this is hard to understand. Only the terminology changes.

21 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

Complexity: The level of detail and complexity in flight simulators is typically much higher than in regular video games. This includes detailed cockpit instrumentation, navigation systems, and flight procedures.

Yes. It is more complex than a regular video game. It is much more complex. It still does not change the fact that it is a video game. Complexity does not determine if something is a game or not.

Edited February 11, 20251 yr by brinx

6 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Yay! You got it right!!

Deflection. No substance.

56 minutes ago, brinx said:

@mSparks, you are correct that the philosophy of developing a video game from a non-flight simulation genre differs from that of a flight simulation genre. The philosophy of developing a sports game is different from the philosophy of developing a car racing game. The problem you are trying to solve is different so you'll attack it from a different angle.

I don't see people arguing about whether a racing simulator is a game. It simulates tire traction, wet/icy roads, suspension, engine wear among many other things. For some reason there are users in flight simulation that think flight simulation is somehow special.

The one thing they all have in common is that they are video games.

genre, use case, specific title are completely irrelevant to everything I said. I am talking about design philosophy only.

How something as simple as even a switch is implemented differently under the hood between a "game" vs a simulation - even if what you see as an end result is exactly the same "switch make lights go on and off".

I can give you for example specific xplane examples of things xplane does not simulate:

xplane has no structural integrity simulation - flaps falling off, airframe overspeeding or over g'ing are not "simulated", they are however specified, they are set at design time.

"xplane is not a crash simulator".

That does not subtract from the truly phenominal job xplane does of simulating electrical and hydraulic systems, engines, wings, weather, and most recently lighting etc etc. Or the unrivalled toolchain xplane offers to expand simulated everything to near perfection for anyone willing to put the time in.

lighting similation in particular has caused a lot of griping because "dark cockpits" - but the simulation there is verging on perfect, and what everyone got to learn from that is our display hardware is badly limited...

"flight simulation is somehow special".

All simulation is Hard, with a great big capital H.

Making a game where "pull back on yoke make plane go up" is very very easy.

Edited February 11, 20251 yr by mSparks

8 minutes ago, brinx said:

Deflection. No substance.

I'm just quoting you so you don't have to keep eating your tail.

🙂 I'm not the one quoting sociologists from the late 1900's. Sociologists who proved my point in their abstract (you didn't provide the full article sadly): games are a subset of simulations.

 

18 minutes ago, brinx said:

It doesn't matter where it runs. It is still a video game. Where it runs does not change what it is.

It does. A software running on a level D sim used by professional pilots is not a game. And you still don’t get it. Where did I claim that it wasn’t technically part of « video-games »?

22 minutes ago, brinx said:

What information, I'm still waiting?

The ones in that thread that for an unknown reason you keep ignoring or answering in a trolling way.

23 minutes ago, brinx said:

Where you use it does not change what it is. I realized this is hard to understand. Only the terminology changes.

It doesn’t change the fact that they are simulators too.

24 minutes ago, brinx said:

Yes. It is more complex than a regular video game. It is much more complex. It still does not change the fact that it is a video game. Complexity does not determine if something is a game or not.

It does not change the fact that they are simulators having a different purpose than most of the « videos-games » and are unique. Their purpose sets them apart.

But again, if you keep ignoring what me or others already explained, it’s useless to debate that endlessly and you can believe whatever makes you happy.

4 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

I'm just quoting you so you don't have to keep eating your tail.

🙂 I'm not the one quoting sociologists from the late 1900's. Sociologists who proved my point in their abstract (you didn't provide the full article sadly): games are a subset of simulations.

Deflection.

You are trying to disprove something that is a fact. It is not possible.

It's like trying to prove that steel is not metal. You can't because steel is metal. (a fact)

You can build a video game that is not a flight simulator. You can't build a flight simulator that is not a video game. Why? Flight simulators are videos games.

 

1 minute ago, Franz007 said:

It does. A software running on a level D sim used by professional pilots is not a game. And you still don’t get it. Where did I claim that it wasn’t technically part of « video-games »?

Look at what simulation games are. Flight simulators and driving simulators are simulation games. Running P3D on your PC at home or Lockheed Martin running it on a million-dollar computer does not change what it is. You use simulation games for training or entertainment. I feel like a broken record repeating this.

6 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

The ones in that thread that for an unknown reason you keep ignoring or answering in a trolling way.

I'm telling you facts, I am not trolling.

7 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

It does not change the fact that they are simulators having a different purpose than most of the « videos-games » and are unique. Their purpose sets them apart.

Yes. Simulation games are unique and different from regular video games.  They tend to be a lot more complex than a regular game. But they are video games nonetheless. Used for training in professional environments and entertainment by many at home.

2 minutes ago, brinx said:

Look at what simulation games are. Flight simulators and driving simulators are simulation games. Running P3D on your PC at home or Lockheed Martin running it on a million-dollar computer does not change what it is. You use simulation games for training or entertainment. I feel like a broken record repeating this.

Talking about a broken record, that’s why I will stop here.

4 minutes ago, brinx said:

I'm telling you facts, I am not trolling.

You mean « facts » like:

6 minutes ago, brinx said:

But they are video games nonetheless. Used for training in professional environments and entertainment by many at home.

?

3 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

Talking about a broken record, that’s why I will stop here.

Okay

3 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

You mean « facts » like:

Yes. Facts like simulation games are used professionally for training and at home for entertainment by many.