2 hours ago, brinx said:

I said that flight simulators are videos games.

Said no ATP ever.

 

2 hours ago, brinx said:

We are all playing video games ladies and gentlemen. period.

🙂 you speak so loudly for yourself!

 

3 hours ago, efis007 said:

Yes I checked it

Obviously not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Plane_(simulator) doesn't contain the word 'game' anywhere in the description. I'll go with this encyclopedic description. Most other folks will too.

It's well known that, in relative terms, X-Plane development is more directed towards the flight simulation / engineering tool aspect, while MSFS development is more directed towards the gaming aspect.

Don't know why this simple matter of fact irks so many people participating in this thread.

Well what was this topic about.

To quote Nitzche - " I have forgotten why I began". 

5 hours ago, Franz007 said:

I never said something else. They are both. And what does Bing-copilot say?

“In general, Microsoft Flight Simulator (MSFS) is considered to be more "gamey" compared to X-Plane. Here’s why:

Accessibility and User Experience

• Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020: Offers a range of difficulty settings and assists to make the game accessible to casual players and flight enthusiasts alike. The game includes tutorials and guided experiences, which makes it easier for beginners to get started and have fun.

• X-Plane: Tends to be more focused on realism and may have a steeper learning curve for new users. It's designed more with serious simmers and aviation professionals in mind.

Content and Activities

• Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020: Includes a variety of game-like elements such as missions, challenges, and achievements. The immersive world exploration and detailed scenery also add to the "gamey" feel.

• X-Plane: While it does offer some challenges and training scenarios, it generally lacks the structured missions and game-like activities that MSFS provides.

User Community and Add-ons

• Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020: Has a large and active community that creates and shares custom content, adding to the game-like experience. The official marketplace offers both free and paid add-ons to enhance gameplay.

• X-Plane: Also has a strong community and many available add-ons, but the focus is often on realism and detailed aircraft systems.

Overall, if you're looking for a more accessible and game-like experience, Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 might be the better choice. X-Plane, on the other hand, is preferred by those who seek a highly realistic flight simulation experience. It all depends on what you’re after in your virtual skies!

 

If even Bing-copilot says it, it MUST be true, right? 😉 Out of curiosity I asked the same question to ChatGPT already some weeks ago. The result was the same. How come? Both are trained on the base of many sources of the internet.

BUT (attention conspiracy theory 🤣): X-Plane user have manipulted ALL of the sources on the WHOLE internet to make X-Plane look better ... So, I wouldn't trust in Bing-copilot and ChatGPT 😅.

 

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

It's well known that, in relative terms, X-Plane development is more directed towards the flight simulation / engineering tool aspect, while MSFS development is more directed towards the gaming aspect.

Don't know why this simple matter of fact irks so many people participating in this thread.

... as independant sources (see above 😉) are saying ...

I guess by some people's definitions in here, a level d sim can be considered a game, too.  Even though it is used for legitimate flight training, the pilots using them are, as some of you are saying, just playing a game.  

You can call X-Plane a game as much as you want to.  It doesn't take away the fact that it is being used for aircraft design and testing as well as pilot training, which includes some 3rd party add ons.  

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by GoranM

6 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

level D {that is a professional simulator) uses in an undisciplined matter can operated like a game as well but does that mean its a game? 

well, in absolute seriousness

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification

how about using a level D simulator in a higjly disciplined manner but also competing with each other to land in the fastest time with the best butter?

with an engine failure of course. 

What seems to happen is everyone forgets the training and commercial use aspects, then start going round and round in circles about the simulation aspects and game(ification) aspects.

My take is really simple.

Xplane is hands down, without rival, the best general simulation platform there is available on the market. That isn't just flight/physics model (despite that being important aspect of any simulation), its the entire package, from taking only seconds to start up to the rich mature toolchain needed to configure a simulation as you want/need it.

xplane has huge untapped "game" potential, mostly because as a game engine it still lacks many important aspects needed for (successful) game development, most notably hit detection and player character development toolchain.

A lot of what we have to look forward to is the latter maturing.

3 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

Well what was this topic about.

This did get lost in the murk of "encyclopedic" "truth".

 

For me at least, this:

2 hours ago, GoranM said:

it is being used for aircraft design and testing 

is one big reason why it's my "general purpose sim". I can tinker under the hood knowing that the laws of physics are being obeyed with precision that doesn't exist elsewhere.

On 1/9/2025 at 3:45 AM, jcomm said:

Well, 

having ATC, default or external, preferably something like Beyond ATC which I am really enjoying, or even FSHUD, being able to interact with AI-injected traffic.

I am good with the combination AutoOrtho + SimHeaven WORLD, even with default Weather which I find better overall than MSFS's default weather, and the aircraft, of pretty much all types feel so much more plausible, realistic that I could close my eyes to the superb depiction of the true World Scenery that MSFS offers.

There's also another factor to take into consideration - integration with Navigraph and the price factor - X-Plane's market having, for now, a way inferior number of potential buyers inflates the price of addons, but then again if we consider the average quality of either payware or freeware aircraft addons, I find it superior to the equivalent type of offers available for MSFS.

I alternate between the two sims, and Condorsoaring 3 for the simulation of soaring flight like in no other flightsim, and "uninstalling" either of the 3 is out of question for now, but **honestly** I would rather prefer to be able to drop MSFS one day 🙂

Why limit yourself...?

Thanks to Orbx TrueEarth and Just Flight's Piper paired with SimCoders REP, I can travel back in time to when I was just 17 years old and learning to fly. And it is a compelling, nostalgic experience - every. single. time.

OTOH, I can use default MSFS v2024 scenery paired with A2A's Piper Comanche and have a very similar experience.

Austin owns / has owned / has flown quite a few IRL aircraft (and training for IFR was his reason for developing XP in the first place). So he's obviously a well established expert on what's important for serious flight simulation.

OTOH, Scott Gentile of A2A Sims, owns and operates his own Piper Comanche, and developed his extremely good AccuSim technology to replicate it in FSX/P3D/MSFS. He's ALSO obviously a well established expert on what's important for serious flight simulation.

The guy who's owned Eagle Dynamics' DCS World for decades now owns several warbirds, and has flown any number of other aircraft. And his software is used by a number of IRL mil/com/gov agencies for IRL flight training. And that makes HIM an expert on what's important for serious (combat) flight simulation.

I'm sure there are IRL pilots who work in the development of Prepar3D, not to mention the number of IRL certified flight simulators based thereon.

And Asobo have spent quite a bit of money training and instrumenting IRL pilots and aircraft to refine MSFS. And there are quite a few IRL professional Big Iron pilots who swear by the MSFS experience.

Which one of them is "right"...? The answer is very similar to "what car should we drive today...?" :)

As long as the solution meets your needs & desires - whatever they may be - I don't really think it matters. There just isn't a "perfect" General Purpose Sim.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by UrgentSiesta

The key is that, if you want to enjoy the best, you can't close yourself to a single simulator.

MFS has for me three essential addons, A2A comanche, Leonardo MD80 and now FSlabs. X-plane has a few more essential addons like Hotstart, REP, Torquesim, Airfoilabs, Zibo etc.

The problem for me with MFS and why I won't buy any more addons is that I don't trust either Asobo or Microsoft (I have A2A and Leonardo and would love to buy FSLabs). 

Not being able to trust them is a big problem in a cloud based software where one day they decide to close the servers and you can throw away the hundreds or thousands of euros that many of us have invested in addons, it's the same thing that happened to me with Google Stadia.

 

5 hours ago, GoranM said:

I guess by some people's definitions in here, a level d sim can be considered a game, too.  Even though it is used for legitimate flight training, the pilots using them are, as some of you are saying, just playing a game.  

Call it a video game or flight simulator if you want, but they are the same thing. In a professional setting, they would say you are training on the simulator. It is still a video game despite any terminology used. The fact that video games based on real world physics can predict the behavior of cars/planes and can be used for real world training does not change the fact that they are still just video games. Flight simulation is just a sub-genre of video games. Just as they were considered video games in the 80s, they are still video games today.  Improved physics, 3D graphics or the fact that pilots now take them seriously does not change this.

You CANNOT make a flight simulator like MSFS, Xplane, P3D etc, without knowing how to make a video game because flight simulators are video games.

My wife says I'm "playing" flight simulator all the time, and I do not get offended. I'm playing a game on my computer where I can pretend to be a pilot. I'm going to agree with Austin here, flight simulators are video games.

 

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by brinx

12 minutes ago, brinx said:

Flight simulation is just a sub-genre of video games

Said no ATP ever.

7 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Said no ATP ever.

At @blingthinger, even the person that created xplane said they are the same. You might want to start with convincing him why the product he created is not a video game like he said. Just watch the video.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by brinx

1 hour ago, brinx said:

Call it a video game or flight simulator if you want, but they are the same thing. In a professional setting, they would say you are training on the simulator. It is still a video game despite any terminology used. The fact that video games based on real world physics can predict the behavior of cars/planes and can be used for real world training does not change the fact that they are still just video games. Flight simulation is just a sub-genre of video games. Just as they were considered video games in the 80s, they are still video games today.  Improved physics, 3D graphics or the fact that pilots now take them seriously does not change this.

You CANNOT make a flight simulator like MSFS, Xplane, P3D etc, without knowing how to make a video game because flight simulators are video games.

My wife says I'm "playing" flight simulator all the time, and I do not get offended. I'm playing a game on my computer where I can pretend to be a pilot. I'm going to agree with Austin here, flight simulators are video games

I doubt anyone is offended. You can call it a ham sandwich if you want to.  If I, as a dev who has made a living out of it for the past 16 years, chooses to treat it as a “simulator” by making add ons that can be used for real world reference, I’m going to call it a simulator. The companies I’ve done contract work for, will also call it a simulator. The airlines that use the Saab for their flight training will call it a simulator. You can disagree all you want. But so can I. If I treated it like a “game”, in the professional capacity, I wouldn’t spend years making add ons for it. I’d spend months. 

46 minutes ago, GoranM said:

I doubt anyone is offended. You can call it a ham sandwich if you want to.

Sadly, lots of people get offended and defensive when you call a simulator a game. 

46 minutes ago, GoranM said:

If I, as a dev who has made a living out of it for the past 16 years, chooses to treat it as a “simulator” by making add ons that can be used for real world reference, I’m going to call it a simulator.

That is great. It is a simulator, and I've said that already. What point are you trying to make? I was pointing out that simulators are video games for those that seem to not understand this. They were video games when they first got created in the 70s/80s and they are still video games today. Whether it is used professionally or not does not change this fact. Only the terminology changes. Even the creator of the simulator you develop addons for, Austin, acknowledged this fact.

 

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by brinx