22 minutes ago, jcomm said:

Life itself, is a Game !

But that all distract from the point.

We all know what games are. But what we are talking about are what we use as hobby and those are simulators. 

I think everyone understands what I mean. I use both games simulator or whatever you want to call it.

Microsoft has some brutal resources but most of those resources go to the game part. Xplane has very limited resources but most of their efforts go to the simulation part.

There are amazing third party addons in both games, if my grandson would just want to hang out and do virtual sightseeing 2024 if my grandson aspires to be a professional or passionate about aviation xplane.

I know a 737 NG and Max pilot who has a lot of fun with 2024 career mode, but when he wants to do more serious stuff he just uses xplane and zibo. Most pilots I also know from Airbus are still on P3D, none of them have any social networking interests so they are free to use what they want.

3 hours ago, efis007 said:

I only said that the belief that Xplane is a simulator, and other products such as P3D or FS2024 are not, is an old false belief.
For example, if I use Xplane at home to play undisciplined,... and instead I use FS9 to fly disciplined with cards and procedures,... Xplane has become a game, FS9 has become a simulator.
And/or vice versa.

One isn‘t a game and the other a sim, I agree because it‘s not black & white. But one is clearly more game-oriented and the other more sim-oriented. Cpt. BB711, an experienced Captain (and instructor) explained many times that if someone cares more about visuals, MSFS was the way to go. But if someone was more interested in aviation, XP does a better job. I agree with him because that‘s where the XP-devs had always put efforts in.

The „undisciplined“ behaviour has nothing to do with this discussion because you can do that with a multimillion professional level D-sim too. Will it then suddenly be a game too?

Edited February 6, 20251 yr by Franz007

8 hours ago, efis007 said:

Insignificant detail.

Maybe for you. In a general sense this depends entirely upon the shopper and the shopping list. 

 

 

8 hours ago, efis007 said:

The concept that only Xplane can boast the title "flight simulator" is simply ridiculous.

Agreed. Of note here though is that of the sims in question, XP is the only one that does get used to

6 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

design ... an aircrafts

And it doesn't need special hardware to do that. Or in other words, on a very non-certifiable PC it gets used for very non-recreational tasks. If I saw the logo of a major video game console whilst on that type of software shopping trip I'd instantly look away.

 

 

5 hours ago, efis007 said:

I only said that the belief that Xplane is a simulator, and other products such as P3D or FS2024 are not, is an old false belief.

No. You only said that it IS a game. The correct statement is that it CAN BE a game. The rest was a thread trap!

22 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

If that is your definition of that constitute a game that is a simulator just because it can run on the PC than any graphic software can be consider a game which is wrong and goes to my earlier point calling Autocad or 3D Studio a game for the same reason.

Come on, don't move the goalposts here. AutoCAD, Photoshop, etc. are not games because they serve no entertainment purposes whatsoever.

 

22 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

How you use it does not change what it is and if LM decide tomorrow to put certain requirement for using the software that is unattractive for gamers, then there is nothing stopping them. It is within their right (LM) as to how they license it's use as to what they want to make the software do as intended. You are just going along for the ride until they decide to let you out. 

If they lock the general audience out of P3D, it will turn into professional training software.

51 minutes ago, Bjoern said:

Come on, don't move the goalposts here. AutoCAD, Photoshop, etc. are not games because they serve no entertainment purposes whatsoever.

I don‘t think one has to do with the other. I started my PPL and flying planes in real as entertainment. I go the wellness for entertainment, I sometimes drive with a car around in nature for discovery and entertainment. Are these also all games?

On 2/7/2025 at 1:00 AM, blingthinger said:

No. You only said that it IS a game. The correct statement is that it CAN BE a game. The rest was a thread trap!

I repeat one last time.

** As long as you use all these "simulators" at home, with typical video game hardware (i.e. using a regular desktop PC/monitor like most virtual pilots do), all these "simulators" are video games in the literal sense of the word, none excluded. **

And I'll give you the encyclopedic link for "video game" again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game

If you don't like that definition and want to rewrite the world's encyclopedias, please sign up on Wikipedia, define what a "video game" is for you and present your request to the Wiki community to publish your encyclopedic version of "video game" in the showcase.

On 2/6/2025 at 11:10 PM, Franz007 said:

The „undisciplined“ behaviour has nothing to do with this discussion because you can do that with a multimillion professional level D-sim too. Will it then suddenly be a game too?

Disciplined or undisciplined behavior is exactly what determines the difference between serious simulation and playing.

What do you think Mr. Austin is doing in this video?

 

Was he serious simulation... or was he playing? 🤭
No serious pilot would fly a plane in that reckless and undisciplined world.

Austin in that video just showed us that it makes absolutely no difference what simulator you put on your desk.
If you are a pilot who wants to play instead of simulating, you can use any product, even the "sacred Xplane", and you will use it as a "game" just like Austin is doing in that video.

So the question is: " is Xplane a simulator, or is it a game"? 🤔
It's always both. Xplane is a video game flight simulator.
The choice of what you want that product to be for you (simulator or game?) is decided by YOU (intended as "user") based on your disciplined or undisciplined behavior of use.

Edited February 9, 20251 yr by efis007

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

one last time

Oh thank you.

 

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

As long as you use all these "simulators" at home, with typical video game hardware (i.e. using a regular desktop PC/monitor like most virtual pilots do), all these "simulators" are video games in the literal sense of the word, none excluded.

Wrong. Yet again. You absolutely can use XP as a legitimate simulation tool to address legitimate engineering goals, at home, with "video game hardware" and yet, as much as you might desperately want to call it a video game, it still won't be a video game.

It won't be for you, but for the encyclopedias of the world (that you refuse to read) xplane IS a video game, as is FS2024, P3D, FS9, and every other "aircraft simulator video game" I've flown for decades. 🛩️
Relax, you won't change the encyclopedias using your false "fan" beliefs, take a deep breath of relief, the world moves on and thank it for giving you the chance to continue playing with this sim.

6 minutes ago, efis007 said:

It won't be for you, but for the encyclopedias of the world (that you refuse to read) xplane IS a video game, as is FS2024, P3D, FS9, and every other "aircraft simulator video game" I've flown for decades. 🛩️
Relax, you won't change the encyclopedias using your false "fan" beliefs, take a deep breath of relief, the world moves on and thank it for giving you the chance to continue playing with this sim.

ummmm

https://ir.bridgeraerospace.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/6/aerial-firefighters-adopt-virtual-reality-flight-simulators

9 minutes ago, efis007 said:

It won't be for you, but for the encyclopedias of the world (that you refuse to read) xplane IS a video game, as is FS2024, P3D, FS9, and every other "aircraft simulator video game" I've flown for decades.

Ah but it is for me. I somehow knew that this:

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

I repeat one last time.

was a steaming pile. Just didn't expect your word to decay so quickly!

I'm not looking at it from your (obviously) video-gamer-centric perspective that is thinking in terms of pilot-training only. Or any graphical/video-based element for that matter. I'm looking at it from the science/engineering viewpoint. The viewpoint that takes a community-driven encyclopedia with giant grains of salt. Why salt? Precisely because folks like you can edit it.

Jose, I think nothing can make you adopt Xp12 or any other fight sim as the general purpose, I used to think XP12 it is , but then I got MSFS 24 and the scenery / visuals stunned me (that's all that is fine with it IMO). 

I load up MSFS thinking I will fly the helis but they feel rather paper plane types no inertia (default ones - not sure about any payware that exists for msfs)  / weird wind variability / terrain effects it's just not going right for me.

Then I load up XP12 give it a smile with the helis but the scenery gets too you.

il2 / DCS otoh being more combat oriented has a limited time for me.

No sim / game will or have everything.

 

 

Edited February 9, 20251 yr by Humpty

6 hours ago, efis007 said:

Austin in that video just showed us that it makes absolutely no difference what simulator you put on your desk.
If you are a pilot who wants to play instead of simulating, you can use any product, even the "sacred Xplane", and you will use it as a "game" just like Austin is doing in that video.

You even quoted my statement and still missed the point. As I said (but I will say it again using your example): Austin can do the exact same in a level D sim that costs multimillions and is certified for pilot-training. So the way you are using a product doesn't change the purpose from what it has been developped for. If you decide to take your car and make races around your builidng, will you call your car a game? Beside of that I agree (again as I already said) that flightsimulation on a PC is also entertainment and is part of the category "video game". It's main purpose is simulation but can be seen as a game too (so yes it's both). And MSFS is more gamey than XP. But again I didn't said that one is a game and the other isn't.

Edited February 9, 20251 yr by Franz007

Gaming is a state of mind.

We humans, just like many other animals / species, play games to get various effects from that activity.

In my day work, I can't feel like playing a game, or at least that's the last thing that comes to my mind, just as I believe a pilot IRL in the cockpit flying a commercial aircraft will... But I get visits from youngster who "play" it as a game 🙂

When I seat at the desktop simulating an airline flight, looking for adverse weather conditions, sometimes even doing something most pilots IRL can't do like watching from an outside view what they're doing, I am playing a game - the game of pretending to have the job I seriously wanted to have since I was 8 yo... 

Some fellow glider pilots I know from my real life soaring activity are airline pilots, and I only know ONE who actually likes talking "flight simulation" stuff with me, and uses P3D, FSLabs, XP11 and Toliss, MSFS 2020 and FSLabs + Fenix as well as PMDG 737 and 777, polls the flight simulation forums, even created a Discord channel to gather a few friends who, just like me, dreamed of having his job...

Most of the other RL pilots I tried to talk about simming HATE IT - "Jose, PLEASE! it's enough to get it every 6 months..." 🤣

The best way to get the idea is looking at how hour half faces glance at our activity... What's the percentage of women playing flight simulation ? Why ? They're A LOT more objective in their activities... well, maybe not - they watch soaps and spend a good deal of their time attached to a mobile screen watching one another in the social media nets... 🤣

Now, if I am working on my next glider task and want to practice it in the desktop, I can use FS 2024 due to it's 2nd to no other scenery detail, I can use Condorsoaring to try to perform the best I can under as close as possible to RL that simulator represents the weather scenario I plan to experience in my RL flight... Then I am using the flight simulator as a trainning tool, for some actual real life activity. I am still playing a game, but there's a purpose beyond just playing it...

Same if you're working on an IFR certification, a type rating, etc...

That friend of mine who is an airline pilot / captain is very pragmatic about how much he found P3D and FSLabs to be of huge importance in keeping proficient during a long hiatus caused by a health problem. And he had never played any sort of desktop games before, and while he knew about flight simuylators, apart from those he was using in his job, he never really felt interested about it at all before...

Aerowinx PS1 and PSX are used by many RW pilots, either former 744 pilots either pilots working on their type rating for the 744. Most of them use it on a laptop without even a joystick, make use of a feature that simulates your copilot for the takeoff and landing and spend their times studying the systems, dealing with failures, etc... They're not playing it as a game...

So, yes, I have to agree - it depends on how / why you use a desktop flight simulation program / app...

I use mine 90% of the time as games - I use them to feel like being an airline pilot, a stunt pilot, an helicopter pilot, anything I wanted to be IRL but didn't fight enough for... ( IRL ).

Edited February 9, 20251 yr by jcomm