1 hour ago, Bjoern said:

A lot of the pads I encounter that haven't been touched by artists are completely overgrown by vegetation or buried half in the ground. Fortunately, X-Plane does not havee tree collision detection. 😬

That makes me wonder... why scenery devs that are creating stuff for the gateway, are not adding exclusion zones, to kill all the vegetation? It's the primary step when doing custom sceneries.

8 hours ago, Bjoern said:

A lot of the pads I encounter that haven't been touched by artists are completely overgrown by vegetation or buried half in the ground. Fortunately, X-Plane does not havee tree collision detection. 😬

I think the way this happened historically was that Austin imported a semi-official database on helipads from the FAA a few decades ago and simply places a "helipad with windsock" wherever that data suggests there is one. He realized that the data is outdated and often wrong, so he opted to not "clear away" autogen to make space for those, instead accepting them to get buried under trees or houses more often than not.

However, there are more and more Gateway artists that take to actually making scenery for those helipads, I have done a ton myself (check out the hospitals around the EDDF area or the 65NJ Kearny Heliport or AZ24 Phoenix Baptist Hospital)

Everyone can help make this better - both by either making scenery for these helipads, but also by reporting derelict/non-existent helipads to the Scenery Gateway...they will then be removed from X-Plane.

21 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I think I've got it confused with the OH-58D 🤣

Could be, I don't fly the Kiowa.

One heli that definitely has SAS is apn's freeware AS365. Never forget to turn it on because it's a real, real handful without it.

 

21 hours ago, Pe11e said:

That makes me wonder... why scenery devs that are creating stuff for the gateway, are not adding exclusion zones, to kill all the vegetation? It's the primary step when doing custom sceneries.

Yes, but a lot (>50%?) of X-Plane's facilities (airfields and helipads) were auto-generated, never touched by artists.

 

14 hours ago, Litjan said:

I think the way this happened historically was that Austin imported a semi-official database on helipads from the FAA a few decades ago and simply places a "helipad with windsock" wherever that data suggests there is one. He realized that the data is outdated and often wrong, so he opted to not "clear away" autogen to make space for those, instead accepting them to get buried under trees or houses more often than not.

Can't Laminar simply poll XP's database for pads that do not have exclusions and auto-create them? The size of the helipad scenery object is known and it isn't too hard to generate a rectangle or boundary from the pad's center point, heading and size. If a given pad does not exist anymore, somebody who's familiar with the area will demand a removal at some point anyway. But in the meantime tourist heli pilots like myself at least have something to land on.

Edited April 4, 20251 yr by Bjoern

23 hours ago, Pe11e said:

Can I ask where did you find Balkan Helicopters scenery? I'm considering doing their little base, as my first steps into creating scenery. Do you have some other bonus sceneries for Belgrade and vicinity?

Cheers!

Thats me messing with WED

I cant share it in its current state because its still using 3rd party assets that dont belong to me.

not to mention my very, very, very long standing gripe with xplane scenery

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/136277-river-and-waterbanks/

I do have a (linux only) tool that pretty much resolves that now.

My plan for it is more or less as soon as we get "next gen" scenery to start from scratch and send it to the scenery gateway. Over the years Ive been gradually replacing things with default assets, there is some really nice brush assets in 12 now, needs grass and someway to share the bathemtry stuff I built before I'd feel comfortable making it public.

Helicopter ...  aeroplane ........ why choose ?  (Sounds worryingly like those combined shampoo / conditioner adds !)

When you want to "oneupmanship"   Tarquins' Parents helicopter arrival at the school summer sports event ..it has to be a

HARRIER AV8B 

 

The OP talked of enjoying the challenge of helicopter flight and landing. Excellent ..now take it to the next level. The hardest landing in aviation.

Fast jet trap at night on the carrier ? .....err...no.

Harrier vertical landing on a Through Deck Carrier / Assault Ship at night, pitching .... double the max allowable for trapping. (If you don't believe me go search Commander Paul Tremelling.)

All available in Xplane... well 11 and please please 12 when / if X-Trident ports it over.

23 hours ago, Bjoern said:

Could be, I don't fly the Kiowa.

One heli that definitely has SAS is apn's freeware AS365. Never forget to turn it on because it's a real, real handful without it.

There's an actually quite good freeware version for XP. I don't fly it much because I'm frankly spoiled by payware.

And now that an extremely high fidelity version has been available in DCSW, I'll be sticking to the JRX in XP. Obviously I've got to work on keeping my brain straight in similar airframes (no wonder you can't hold multiple Type Ratings IRL 😂).

10 hours ago, thepitts said:

Helicopter ...  aeroplane ........ why choose ?  (Sounds worryingly like those combined shampoo / conditioner adds !)

When you want to "oneupmanship"   Tarquins' Parents helicopter arrival at the school summer sports event ..it has to be a

HARRIER AV8B 

 

The OP talked of enjoying the challenge of helicopter flight and landing. Excellent ..now take it to the next level. The hardest landing in aviation.

Fast jet trap at night on the carrier ? .....err...no.

Harrier vertical landing on a Through Deck Carrier / Assault Ship at night, pitching .... double the max allowable for trapping. (If you don't believe me go search Commander Paul Tremelling.)

All available in Xplane... well 11 and please please 12 when / if X-Trident ports it over.

LOVE the Harrier!

But IMHO it's not any harder to recover aboard than a non-SCAS helo or non-Fly-By-Wire jet.

Remember: the "3-wire" for a fixed-wing recovery is exactly 250 feet down a 750 foot runway, canted 10 degrees to port, and always moving away from you at 10-ish to 25-ish knots while you're racing towards it at 140 knots! Miss that exact spot because your AoA / Speed / Glide Path is off just a fraction, and you might either smash your aircraft onto the fantail, or (hopefully) just miss all the wires and bolter around for another try. 🙂

The Harrier, somewhat like a helo, has a far greater degree of movement latitude and is moving just about exactly the same speed as the ship. It's NOT easy, but it's still more forgiving of slight errors.

In re recovering in heavy seas, absolutely agree: it's a nightmare no matter what kind of airframe you're piloting! You do it exactly right or you smash yourself to bits, bend an airframe, drown or die of hypothermia IF you happen to be able to get out of the aircraft as it sinks to the bottom. 😞

Former F-14 RIO Ward Carroll said they once recoverd to an aircraft carrier that was heaving so much the screws (propellers) were actually breaking the surface of the sea!!!

I stand to be corrected, but last I saw for flight sim you only get heaving decks for small helicopter-type ships. I haven't seen heaving decks on aircraft carriers - I hear it's devilishly hard to keep addons from sliding all over the deck if the "ground" is also moving beneath them!!

Strangely enough, a quick image search doesn't produce a modern Carrier Vehicle in a storm, but here's a few from WW2 illustrating how crazy it can get out there! :

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 20251 yr by UrgentSiesta

I remember having seen the below video. Impressive.

 

 Apart from that, I tried helos in XP myself longer time ago but never had the patience to learn to fly them - in the air it isn't THIS hard (I even did that in real live some years ago in an R22), but especially landing, even on fixed ground like a heliport is hard enough. However, this thread has motivated me to try again - this time for longer 😉.

Edited April 5, 20251 yr by uwespeed

Those pictures ! Now that’s what I call a pitching deck !

Interesting thoughts on the relative difficulties of getting on board. Holding at altitude then transferring to a lengthened straight in approach on a moving ship, both electronically and visually defined, flown to very tight tolerances. Compared with ... approaching a beacon at very low altitude, coming to a hoverstop adjacent to the moving ship then laterally translating and finally descending with reduced visual references.

Throw in poor weather and a pitching deck (tend to come as a package) with Carrier trapping limited to 3 degrees and vertical landing to 6 degrees movement. Both of these procedures done in the pitch black with nothing to distinguish a dark overcast sky from the dark water beneath. Leading to the potential for all manner of forms of visual disoriention. Pilots frequently describe it as flying into a black hole. It’s no surprise to hear seasoned Naval Aviators stating that overtime they became comfortable with Operations around the boat. All that is except night landings; one operation they never felt comfortable doing...ever.

Very few aviators have trapped on board a carrier in all conditions. Even fewer those that have vertically landed on ships in all conditions. The number that have done BOTH you could probably count on the fingers of one hand with fingers to spare. Commander P.Tremelling (rtd) is one courtesy of an unfortunate / fortunate series of circumstances. He was at the peak of his military career as a Royal Navy(RN) Sea Harrier Weapons Officer (think Top Gun Instructor...the elite of the elite...you get the idea) when out of the blue’ish (2006)  the UK Government retired the whole harrier fleet RAF and RN. Not good ... at least for Mr Tremelling. Some sensible individual in the navy thought it might be worthwhile maintaining some naval aviation skill / knowledge during this enforced “Capability Holiday” and arranged with the cousins for a select few RN pilots to join their carrier attack squadrons. ....Now you’re ahead of me. Yes he got one of the slots and ended up flying Superhornets; not just learning the ropes but on Active deployment with his squadron.

This is one of the reasons he ended up as a guest on Vincent(“Jell-O”)’s Fighterpilot podcast. It was here he was asked, given his wide experience (including helicopter flying), what was the most difficult flying he had done. Vincent, not unreasonably, was expecting the Commander to say “poor weather night carrier trap”. Instead he was quietly taken aback when the Commander said without hesitation “night vertical landing on a pitching deck” !

All I know is I don’t have, never did have, and probably never would have in any potential future life(if you’re into that thing)...anywhere near the skill and nerve to perform either of those tasks.

There is also the possibility it was just a “pissing contest” given the fact it was two FAST JET FIGHTER PILOTS chatting !

Cheers Tim

Finally a post I can read well! 🧐

1 hour ago, Litjan said:

Finally a post I can read well! 🧐

🤣

8 hours ago, thepitts said:

Those pictures ! Now that’s what I call a pitching deck !

Interesting thoughts on the relative difficulties of getting on board. Holding at altitude then transferring to a lengthened straight in approach on a moving ship, both electronically and visually defined, flown to very tight tolerances. Compared with ... approaching a beacon at very low altitude, coming to a hoverstop adjacent to the moving ship then laterally translating and finally descending with reduced visual references.

Throw in poor weather and a pitching deck (tend to come as a package) with Carrier trapping limited to 3 degrees and vertical landing to 6 degrees movement. Both of these procedures done in the pitch black with nothing to distinguish a dark overcast sky from the dark water beneath. Leading to the potential for all manner of forms of visual disoriention. Pilots frequently describe it as flying into a black hole. It’s no surprise to hear seasoned Naval Aviators stating that overtime they became comfortable with Operations around the boat. All that is except night landings; one operation they never felt comfortable doing...ever.

Very few aviators have trapped on board a carrier in all conditions. Even fewer those that have vertically landed on ships in all conditions. The number that have done BOTH you could probably count on the fingers of one hand with fingers to spare. Commander P.Tremelling (rtd) is one courtesy of an unfortunate / fortunate series of circumstances. He was at the peak of his military career as a Royal Navy(RN) Sea Harrier Weapons Officer (think Top Gun Instructor...the elite of the elite...you get the idea) when out of the blue’ish (2006)  the UK Government retired the whole harrier fleet RAF and RN. Not good ... at least for Mr Tremelling. Some sensible individual in the navy thought it might be worthwhile maintaining some naval aviation skill / knowledge during this enforced “Capability Holiday” and arranged with the cousins for a select few RN pilots to join their carrier attack squadrons. ....Now you’re ahead of me. Yes he got one of the slots and ended up flying Superhornets; not just learning the ropes but on Active deployment with his squadron.

This is one of the reasons he ended up as a guest on Vincent(“Jell-O”)’s Fighterpilot podcast. It was here he was asked, given his wide experience (including helicopter flying), what was the most difficult flying he had done. Vincent, not unreasonably, was expecting the Commander to say “poor weather night carrier trap”. Instead he was quietly taken aback when the Commander said without hesitation “night vertical landing on a pitching deck” !

All I know is I don’t have, never did have, and probably never would have in any potential future life(if you’re into that thing)...anywhere near the skill and nerve to perform either of those tasks.

There is also the possibility it was just a “pissing contest” given the fact it was two FAST JET FIGHTER PILOTS chatting !

Cheers Tim

Great story! Fascinating that the CDR got the opportunity to fly Super Hornets with the USN after so long with the RN in Harriers!

Logically, it would've made more sense to "cross deck" him to a USMC Harrier squadron, but his opportunity likely came about as a series of personal connections rather than "Military Logic" 😉 (I'm former military, so no bad intent there).

And come to think of it, Since the USMC flies Harriers (IIRC they still have a few active!) and Hornets, there's probably a few additional very lucky aviators to have operated both.

One quote that always stuck with me is that instrumented physiology studies of USN combat pilots (IIRC, in the Vietnam War era) showed that their stress levels on any given combat sortie were significantly higher during recovery to the ship than when they were being shot at during combat runs!!

Throw on top of that night time, high winds and heavy seas - yeah, they all have my highest respect. I can barely do a Case III sitting at my desk with the lights turned off!

I got distracted with other pixel planes yesterday, and this reminds me I need to go humiliate myself...I mean, "practice" with the DCS Harrier for a few circuits around the LHA today!

22 hours ago, uwespeed said:

I remember having seen the below video. Impressive.

 

 Apart from that, I tried helos in XP myself longer time ago but never had the patience to learn to fly them - in the air it isn't THIS hard (I even did that in real live some years ago in an R22), but especially landing, even on fixed ground like a heliport is hard enough. However, this thread has motivated me to try again - this time for longer 😉.

The above and scenes like this are what I think about whenever I see flight simmer "Rate My Butter Landing" videos 😂

 

On 4/5/2025 at 10:30 PM, UrgentSiesta said:

Strangely enough, a quick image search doesn't produce a modern Carrier Vehicle in a storm, but here's a few from WW2 illustrating how crazy it can get out there! :

...

My maritime skills aren't the greatest, but 1 and 3 look more like a hard turn during a bomb/torpedo evasion drill than the effect of rough seas. In general, considering the depicted escort carriers weren't the prime crop of speed and seawortiness (certainly not when compared to fleet carriers) and the roll axis being the ship's weakest one for stability, captains would turn into the wind as much as possible instead.

But fear not, as a prime example of flat tops braving the elements, here's a video of Kitty Hawk versus some very tall waves: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3f1otu

And speaking of tall waves... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3rp3ob

 

Edited April 7, 20251 yr by Bjoern

2 hours ago, Bjoern said:

My maritime skills aren't the greatest, but 1 and 3 look more like a hard turn during a bomb/torpedo evasion drill than the effect of rough seas. In general, considering the depicted escort carriers weren't the prime crop of speed and seawortiness (certainly not when compared to fleet carriers) and the roll axis being the ship's weakest one for stability, captains would turn into the wind as much as possible instead.

But fear not, as a prime example of flat tops braving the elements, here's a video of Kitty Hawk versus some very tall waves: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3f1otu

And speaking of tall waves... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3rp3ob

 

They're all 3 of large, >600 foot long ships caught in very heavy seas 🙂

Image #1 & #3 are Cowpens & Langley weathering Typhoon Cobra during 1944

Image #2 is Lunga Point in a storm off Japan, 1945

For refernce, the Royal Navy aircraft carriers that embarked RN Sea Harriers were only about 60 feet longer.

So, these were the best images I could find with good perspective on how wildly a carriers deck can roll/heave in heavy seas.

Again, doesn't matter what kind of aircraft or how big the ship, it's still nightmare fuel 😉 

 

 

Edited April 7, 20251 yr by UrgentSiesta