57 minutes ago, speedyTC said:

Just saying that much more is needed to be done but in an organised and scientific way rather than be driven by profit and lobbies as both fossil fuel and electric proponents tend to do.

The problem is that a certain entity, which uses force and threats to implement its policies, keeps interfering, and some people even cheer this on.

Profits will always drive innovation and progress.  Would you risk a lot of money and work really hard for something if you didn't get rewarded somehow in the end? 

If we allow individuals and businesses to decide what type of vehicles they want, then things will work out fine.  There is a market for all types of vehicles.

BTW, the ultimate goal in the EU is to ban personal vehicles altogether, for the little people, that is.  They should only be allowed to use public transportation, and maybe a few public, shared vehicles in their 15-minute cities and towns.  Mark my words.

Dave

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

BTW, the ultimate goal in the EU is to ban personal vehicles altogether, for the little people, that is.  They should only be allowed to use public transportation, and maybe a few public, shared vehicles in their 15-minute cities and towns.  Mark my words.

Wut!? This is going to be big news to four hundred and fifty million people who live in the EU Dave!

Thanks for letting us know🤣

4 hours ago, dave2013 said:

[1] Profits will always drive innovation and progress. 

[2] If we allow individuals and businesses to decide what type of vehicles they want, then things will work out fine. 

[3] BTW, the ultimate goal in the EU is to ban personal vehicles altogether, for the little people, that is.  They should only be allowed to use public transportation, and maybe a few public, shared vehicles in their 15-minute cities and towns.  Mark my words.

[1] Maximizing profits also drives cutting corners and corruption. And it can result in blatant disregard of the needs of humanity as a whole, or those of future generations. Trying to maximize a single variable (profit) is like trying to get to the top of Mount Everest by picking a random latitude and then run straight East, i.e., along a single dimension. Most problems in life, business, or science depend on many variables, and one has to find a balanced approach to find the optimal solution. Don't get me wrong, profit has its benefits and has certainly contributed to increasing humanities well-being. But you need to keep an eye on it.

[2] Companies have ways to manipulate people's desires. The current preference for SUVs and pick-ups is a consequence of exactly that: car manufactures make more money by selling bigger cars ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/suv-small-car-affordable-1.7239768 ). People buy them even though they pay considerably more for the vehicle and for gas, something I never understood. We always drove a Ford, but the last time we bought a car, they didn't even have a car available anymore that suited our needs. So we switched to another manufacturer.

[3] OMG, Dave, have you ever been to Europe?

1 hour ago, qqwertz said:

Trying to maximize a single variable (profit)

But... they're not trying to maximize just a single variable.  They're also trying to make the work experience as miserable as possible!  Some of them get quite creative at this.
 

1 hour ago, qqwertz said:

Companies have ways to manipulate people's desires. The current preference for SUVs and pick-ups is a consequence of exactly that: car manufactures make more money by selling bigger cars

This is the point I was making earlier about "the Mustang Grande... Bigger!  Heavier!"  I can't complain too much about SUVs... the family owned a Ford Expedition at one time. 😄  In my defense, I wasn't with them when they bought it.

The Expedition was... pretty nice, really.  🙂 
 

1 hour ago, qqwertz said:

OMG, Dave, have you ever been to Europe?

I think he's trying to avoid thinking about it happening where he lives.  I don't blame him.

I found taxi, bus and rail to be top notch in Germany.

Hook

Edited August 9, 2025Aug 9 by LHookins

3 hours ago, qqwertz said:

OMG, Dave, have you ever been to Europe?

Lived there for 11 years, 2 in the UK and 9 in Italy.  Spent some time in Germany, Austria, Spain, and Slovenia.  Beautiful places.

All one has to do is look up UN Agenda 21 and Agenda 2030, as well as some documents from the World Economic Forum, Rockefeller Foundation, Ford Foundation, and others related to the Net Zero campaign.  They don't outright say that they want to ban the little people from owning cars, but it is implied.  At its core, the philosophy is that humans are bad and are destroying the planet with our overconsumption, for example, having things like cars, air conditioners, large appliances, eating too much meat, etc.  Therefore, policies must be implemented to limit that consumption, and some of those policies are promoted under the guise of something I can't discuss here.

The rich and powerful folks promoting this stuff haven't been very shy about it lately, whereas before it was very secretive.

2 hours ago, LHookins said:

I think he's trying to avoid thinking about it happening where he lives.

Where I live will be one of the last places to adopt this drivel, other than maybe China, Russia, India, and a few other countries.  People escape California, New York, New Jersey, and Illinois and come to live here.

Dave 

8 hours ago, dave2013 said:

BTW, the ultimate goal in the EU is to ban personal vehicles altogether, for the little people, that is.  They should only be allowed to use public transportation, and maybe a few public, shared vehicles in their 15-minute cities and towns.  Mark my words.

This is not a EU thing it is a population density thing, same rule applies in Southern California or the US North East Corridor as well. More people means more congestion which demands a solution. Nothing new people took trains from the suburbs into the cities even in the USA's largest cities going back to the 1950's now, and parked their car at the train station. This concept is nothing new

17 hours ago, LHookins said:

And only 15% of American electricity is derived from wind (10%) and solar (5%).  Another 5% from hydro rounds out the renewables.

 

 

Electric power trains are 85% efficient. Internal combustion power trains only 40% if you are lucky. Thus, even if a grid is mostly fossil fuel based, CO2 emissions are lower from BEV's. 

 

17 hours ago, LHookins said:

Maybe we could just keep things as they are now, and rely on innovation to keep increasing efficiency of petroleum based cars

 

I'm afraid not. There are diminishing returns with such a strategy. Even with increased efficiency you still get nasty stuff out of the tailpipe. The so-called "well to wheel efficiency" of of ICE vehicles, including the energy used to extract, refine and transport fuel, is significantly higher than for EV's. 

 

17 hours ago, LHookins said:

and the UK can revive it's wine industry.

 

We had one? 😲

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by martin-w

Deleticated.

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by martin-w
Deleted and added a word I invented.

 

Also deleticated.

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by martin-w
Deleted so as not to annoy moderator.

9 hours ago, dave2013 said:

At its core, the philosophy is that humans are bad and are destroying the planet 

 

and you think that's not the case?

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by Reader

6 hours ago, martin-w said:

and the UK can revive it's wine industry.

6 hours ago, martin-w said:

We had one? 😲

Probably during the Roman Climatic Optimum (or Roman Warm Period), a period of unusually-warm weather in Europe and the North Atlantic that ran from approximately 250 BC to AD 400.
 

Quote

Ancient Roots:

Wine production in the UK has roots dating back to the Roman period, with evidence of vineyards and wine production.

Monastic Vineyards:

Monasteries played a role in reviving viticulture after the Norman Conquest, using vineyards for religious purposes.

Wait, that last was after 1066.  Oh, here it is:

"The Medieval Warm Period (MWP), also known as the Medieval Climate Optimum or the Medieval Climatic Anomaly, was a time of warm climate in the North Atlantic region that lasted from about 950 CE to about 1250 CE."

"The Romans introduced winemaking to the UK, in a period with a relatively warm climate. Their vineyards were as far north as Northamptonshire and Lincolnshire, with others in Buckinghamshire and Cambridgeshire, and probably many other sites. The wines were most likely fruity and sweet, fermented with added honey, and drunk within six months. Winemaking continued at least down to the time of the Normans, with over 40 vineyards in England mentioned in the Domesday Book; much of it was communion wine for the Eucharist."

Modern day:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_from_the_United_Kingdom

"The United Kingdom is a major consumer of wine, although a minor grower and producer. Wine production in the UK has historically been perceived as less than ideal due to the cool climate, but warmer summers and grapes adapted to these conditions have played a role in increasing investment and sale of wines."

🙂 

Hook

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by LHookins

If anyone here has driven or owned a Chinese EV, I'd be interested in hearing your impressions.  I'll trust most people from here before I'd trust most outside sources.  Too many agendas.

Before this thread, I'd never really thought about Chinese EVs.  MGuy is critical of all EVs.

Hook

Note:  I'm not interested in outside opinions.  I can look those up myself.

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by LHookins

6 hours ago, Reader said:

 

and you think that's not the case?

I think that is exactly the case.  Humans are selfish, greedy, and destructive.

I am a conservationist, IE I believe that *everyone* should reduce their consumption and recycle resources as much as possible.  I also believe that there are too many people on this planet.  The good news is that global population is predicted to level out at around 10 billion and then gradually decline.

What I don't want is a group of hypocritical authoritarian overlords telling me I can't drive a car, run my air conditioner, or eat meat while they fly around in private jets, stay in luxurious 5 star hotels, and eat veal at michelin star restaurants.

Dave

 

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by dave2013

32 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

What I don't want is a group of hypocritical authoritarian overlords telling me I can't drive a car, run my air conditioner, or eat meat while they fly around in private jets, stay in luxurious 5 star hotels, and eat veal at michelin star restaurants.

Caption on a comic from about 1973 during the oil crisis:  "But I'm rich!  I can afford to waste the world's resources."

Or an anecdote from real life.  An older Pentagon coworker (very senior programmer) with his Lincoln Town Car at a gas station.

Woman: "It's people like you who caused this gas crisis!!"

Coworker: "I'm doing the best I can.  I've given up two Florida vacations already this year."  He was a bit of a character.

This guy was a programmer before COBOL.  He was at the very top step of GS-13, as high as you could go in a non-supervisory role.

(This year, GS-13 step 10 with the Washington D.C Locality Payment is $156,755.)

Hook

 

Edited August 10, 2025Aug 10 by LHookins

For what it's worth...

We went from horse drawn carriages to the iron horse of internal combustion engines for personal transport.  Public transportation, streetcars, relied on electric motors powered from overhead distribution wires or cables.

Railroads went the way of coal fired steam engines.  Later bunker oil fired their boilers until diesel oil fired internal combustion engines for locomotives.  The latter are still use except for lines that use electric power from overhead lines or third rails.

So you see, transportation is an evolutionary process.  That process will continue until we eventually have battery powered automobiles, trucks and railroad locomotives and possibly even passenger aircraft.

We are at the beginning of the electric cycle of this evolutionary process and to those who are tied to the past will hang on to ICEs as long as they can.

There was a period when the horseless carriage shared the road  with real horses.  And when a horseless carriage broke down on the side of the road someone passing by in a horse drawn carriage would shout out, "Get a horse!"

I forsee an electric vehicle broken down on the side of a highway and someone in an ICE will shout, "Get something gasoline powered!"

The horse versus horseless carriage debate has evolved to the ICE versus electric debate.  I love it!

Long after I'm gone another energy source will be discovered to compete with electric.  And the new gasitric vehicle will be broken down on the side of the road and someone wlll shot out, "Get and electric!"

It's evolution guys.  You can't stop it.

Noel