Ok, I am going to comment, ask a question or both.I have read the entire thread with a mixture of feelings. I know that you do not know me or I you. I have been around FS for several years. I like many of you, have purchased ALOT of software.It is difficult to ask this question but I must, as I am teetering on getting the Ariane 737. This is my opinion only, I have the PMDG MD-11 and for an airliner and everything that I have wanted in a simulator is there..ie: systems complexity, very immersive sound (without having to buy a sub) decent outside model, pushback, ground crew interaction....How does this stack up? I desire a very immersive 737. How good is the VC lighting? Sounds? I am asking because you have it and I am looking for an informed opinion.Thank you for your time.

I must say those last screenshots may have sold me on this. Now I'm just waiting for them to clear up the navdata with navigraph...By then though, the PMDG offering may be close to ready. Ariane better hurry up if they want my money :(

Wilko, the only reason that I could imagine that they would charge you anything at all for re-activation is if you loose all of your purchasing information, like you order number, password and date of purchase, etc. Then they would have to be paying someone to spend the time to search through records to find you purchase information.

Why can't the guy that's running their support forum also handle the re-activation for nothing?

James you have placed a very good comment here. I don't agree with everything that you say, I agree with some of it, but it is all good honest healthy opinion. No one is going to like everything about any sim. I believe a developer strives to make the best sim, but there are many obstacles to overcome. Unfortunately it seems that because developers (obviously) can't share their knowledge, they have to re-invent the wheel with every sim, dealing with limitations within MSFS, choices that may cause high FPS, choices in how to deal with the graphics, systems, etc. I wish developers could put all of their heads together, share their knowledge and build one complete set of airliners that would be totally bo out of this world. Nirvana! Won't happen in this lifetime.

Great screen shots, not an owner of the 757 )Waiting for levelD on that as their hardware support amazing, however interesting to compare the shots with some of those of the Ariane, and the 757 cockpit detail blows away that of the Ariane one, just look at those throttle/flap/speed brake levers compared to the rather square ones on the Ariane.

Captain Sim's visuals blow everyone elses away including Level D, PMDG and you name it. CS is a visual master.

It seems that the Airane is a work in progress, and that hardware support(In some form) will come, along with a better FMC and Navdata, however I get the distinct feeling all of those will be at a price. Which is making the Ariane look even more over priced for the 70pounds it should contain all of that , for less I have all of it in the LevelD 767 already. One external review of the 737 already said that the product fits in the middle of beginner and advanced sims when comparing it to other options on the market. unlike the comment that someone said above that it was aimed above the "Simmer" hence the price.

I really have a hard time agreeing with a review that would say that it is not complex with the flight system. If you don't follow normal procedures starting up and flying the Ariane Boing models, you won't get out of the shoot. So many simmers can't even figure out how to light up the DUs because they don't read the manual that Ariane provides with the sim (and yes, I believe you can print it now). I do agree that at this time, Ariane does not simulate the air conditioning and pressurization systems like PMDG or Level D. The pre-flight tests (fire, APU, oxigen, etc) are also not simulated like Leonardo's Maddog MD80 yet. From what I've been told, and like you say about a work in progress, all of these systems will eventually be simulated. But I wouldn't expect it to be freely distributed. Patches or service packs to the present products would be free, but new products with new features probably will come at a price. Remember that 737s are the only thing that Ariane makes. When they put out a new product, it will still be a 737. I think this is where some people have a problem. They think, "There charging me for another 737 and not giving it to me for free because I already bought their 737!". No...that's all they make is 737s. When they release a new product down the road, it will still be a 737. That is what they specialize in, it is all that they make and their vision is to perfect it as they release new versions.Opinions on price are very subjective. If you are used to paying between $30 and $55 for an airline sim, you may bulk when you see one offered for more than $100. There are a lot of factors that go into price. One of those considerations are definitely volume. If someone is selling around a million downloads, plus published CDs, you can sell them much less than someone who maybe is only selling a half million. Volume brings the price down. Yet the cost of development doesn't change. The same research has to be done, the same labor and payroll has to be met, etc.This is why Microsoft can sell FSX cheaper than most complex airline sims. FSX is more complicated than any airline sim, yet it only sells for $35 as a set of CDs. But the volume is huge.Ariane obviously don't sell the quantity of packages that PMDG sells, yet they have a good following of customers that are willing to pay what they charge, enjoy the products and are anxious to see new releases. Can it really be said that it is "overpriced"? It may be more that some people want to spend, but labeling it "overpriced" implies that they are dishonest and that is not the case.I just read somewhere about a full motion simulator that costs more than the actual aircraft. That would seem overpriced, yet if there is a market for it, it is not really overpriced, it's just expensive and maybe out of reach of some carriers. I can't afford a Mercedes. I don't think they are overpriced. I just can't afford one and really don't have that much of a desire to drive one. I'd much rather have my pickup. I believe Mercedes Benz are honest people who feel that their prices are in line, just not for me.On the other hand you say that you are waiting for the Level D 757. I hope you don't anticipate that it will cost the same as their 767. The Level D 767 is an old model and any new complex simulation that is offered today will cost upward of $85 and $90 guaranteed.Airsimmers has just announced the price of their Airbus A320 as being $89.95. Not cheap, but I believe this will be the norm for new sims that are released.It will be quite a long time before you see PMDG's 737 for FSX or the Level D 757. By the time they are released, the price may be a rude awakening for many.I just want to make one last comment on the nav data concerns. Ariane is working on a nav data tool that sounds like it will do everything the online simmer needs and much more.Navigraph commented about this before and said themselves that people cannot expect the sim developer to also give nav data updates for their simulations. They said that they put the simulations in a list and work with the sim developer on preparing the sim to accept their nav data. Nav data and updates is a huge task in itself. Navigraph said that the fact that the sim developer does not provide their own nav date updats should not go against that developer when judging their sim.Despite this, Ariane has been working for over a year now on a Nav Data Manager that they will release in the near future. It will include one of the most complete FMS/CDUs available in any PC simulation. It will have FIX, HOLD, DIR TO, modifiable VNAV speed/path and much more, but it will be integral to the Nav Data Manager and will work for both the FS9 and FSX products.Custom nav data, SIDs and STARs will be able to be created, uploaded and stored at Ariane's website to be downloaded and exchanged freely by other Ariane aircraft users. Different opinions are always good but I think it is also better when opinions are based on facts. The fact is that I have never heard of Ariane charging anyone for re-activation when upgrading computers, etc. I suppose they may charge a fee if the person did not keep track of the order information and want Ariane to dig through their records to find their order. I believe you can expect the same thing from any developer.Another fact that needs to be cleared up that you touch on is the one-on-one support method that Ariane uses. This may be a little confusing and the problem is in the labeling.One-on-one product and activation support through email is free. No charge, never-ever. That is a fact. Now you say "But it says that you have to pay for One-on-one!" and you even link the web page where it says this. The One-on-one that Ariane is talking about in the website is not really support. What they are charging for is One-on-one Tutoring. If you read it closely, you will see that it says if you don't like to read manuals, they will be willing to tutor you on the complete operation of their simulation for a charge. This may be confusing and I think it should have been made more clear, but this one-on-one does not refer to the free support that they provide. Bob

Why can't the guy that's running their support forum also handle the re-activation for nothing?

The guy you refer to does not work for Ariane. He is just a customer who loves the Ariane products and felt that they should have a customer forum. Ariane feels that they do not have the time to manage or admin a forum.Ariane prefers to handle each support issue individually and when the issue is resolved, place the solution in the FAQs for other customers to access. Their collection of FAQs are much larger than most developers.I believe they feel it is better to handle it this way because placing support issues on a forum invites a lot of posts that may become a distraction from the problem. This can be argued, but it is the way they look at it.The guy who runs the customer forum also owns the forum, but he does not have any access to customer order information or activation information.Ariane's will re-activate your products for free if you still have your order information and if you are not re-activating the same product numerous times within a short period (who changes their harddrive six times a month?).If you buy pay-ware download products, you must keep all of your order information. I make copies of my order confirmation emails, serial codes, etc. on Notepad and keep them in the same folder with my .exe files. Then I make backups of everything on an external harddrive so I keep two copies of everything I have. This is the only way to stay out of trouble when you pay good money for pay-ware.Bob

Ok.I asked a legitimate question. Apparently the flammable type comments are the only one(s) that generates interest in this thread.I rarely post and this has a lot to do with why.I believe I have my answer. Thank you for your help.

Ok, I am going to comment, ask a question or both.I have read the entire thread with a mixture of feelings. I know that you do not know me or I you. I have been around FS for several years. I like many of you, have purchased ALOT of software.It is difficult to ask this question but I must, as I am teetering on getting the Ariane 737. This is my opinion only, I have the PMDG MD-11 and for an airliner and everything that I have wanted in a simulator is there..ie: systems complexity, very immersive sound (without having to buy a sub) decent outside model, pushback, ground crew interaction....How does this stack up? I desire a very immersive 737. How good is the VC lighting? Sounds? I am asking because you have it and I am looking for an informed opinion.Thank you for your time.

Cloudhopper, everyone here knows my opinion. I'm an Ariane customer. But I'm also a PMDG, Level D, Leonardo Maddog, PIC737, Flight1 Super80Pro and Fokker, Eaglesoft, Wilco and Captain Sim customer. I wouldn't put all the time defending Ariane if I wasn't crazy about the sim. As a simmer, I don't consider them better than the others, just different and every bit as immersive. On top of that, I enjoy flying the 737 NG.For example, Ariane doesn't use a 2D cockpit. They have some 2d popup panels, but have an excellent 3d virtual cockpit that can really be much better appreciated with TrackIR.If you look on their website at the description of the X2 you can find that, although it is ornate, it is very accurate. I rarely fly with 2d cockpit on any of my aircraft. TrackIR just spoils you from looking at a flat panel, so Ariane's Boeing works well for me hat way.I find there system of interacting with knobs and switches very natural. I would much rather have a good VC cockpit and TrackIR than any GoFlight modules. But that's just me.I enjoy flying my PMDG MD11 and 744 and I love my Level D and Captain Sim 727 and 757, but I always go back to my Ariane Boeing 737 X2. It is a very good and accurate 737 in my opinion, and a lot of fun to fly. Not perfect...room for the improvements that are coming, but it has a complex flight system and flies like what I believe a 737 really does and it is very immersive.But because I love Ariane's 737 so much, my opinion might be subjective to a degree. I could not write a good review on it because I just like it too much. I guess I'm part of their fan club. :( Alan Bradbury from right here at Avsim, will be writing a very honest review of the aircraft that will look at it much more objectively than I ever could. You might want to wait on that.

Thank you Signmanbob for your honest answer.I wanted an opinion from someone who also has those aircraft as well. I have recently purchased the CS 727 and I am spoiled regarding the VC quality. However the systems fidelity is not there as I wish it were. I have been reluctant to purchase due to seeing the screenshots of the 737 and not seeing even close to the same quality VC wise as the 727.The immersion factor in the VC of the 727 is something else. How immersive IYO are the sounds? I have the TSS CFM sounds for the Wilco 737 PIC and I think they are really good. I would like to think the Ariane sim is more complex than the Wilco?!Thanks for your time.

It is difficult to ask this question but I must, as I am teetering on getting the Ariane 737. This is my opinion only, I have the PMDG MD-11 and for an airliner and everything that I have wanted in a simulator is there..ie: systems complexity, very immersive sound (without having to buy a sub) decent outside model, pushback, ground crew interaction....How does this stack up? I desire a very immersive 737. How good is the VC lighting? Sounds? I am asking because you have it and I am looking for an informed opinion.Thank you for your time.

As you you probably know, I've only just got the thing, but even flying it for a little while I can answer some of those questions (don't confuse this with the upcoming review, these are just based on what limited experience I have of the thing so far, so they might not be the definitive guide):It's an improvement on the PMDG FS9 737 for sure, and it's an improvement on the Wilco one too (both in FSX and FS9), and I like both those 737s incidentally. The virtual cockpit lighting is very impressive indeed, the sounds are really good too, probably some of the best I've come across in fact, so all the rattles and trim clicks and stuff like that add to things quite a bit, and based on a DVD I have of several 737 flights, it all sounds very much like the real deal.Since there are no 2D panels as such, apart from the CDU, as you can imagine, the virtual cockpit would have to be good to make it possible to use without being a pain, and it is from what I have seen thus far (I did the tutorial flight in the manual from KSEA to KSFO and using purely the VC did not present problems and was actually pretty enjoyable, and the manuals are pretty good actually). Having said that, since you effectively have to do the co-pilot's job too as far as operating the overhead is concerned when you fly an FS airliner, that can be a little awkward, as you are viewing the switches on the co-pilot's side at quite an oblique angle from the captain's seat. Of course the Ariane 737 is not alone in that, I have a DC-2 add-on that suffers the same thing when you try and reach the starboard engine mixture lever, which has the throttle and carburettor heat control levers in the way. It's not impossible to operate the switches like that, and you could shift the view over if you wanted to, but some might prefer a 2D panel in those sort of circumstances. Nevertheless, you can save multiple viewpoint positions as presets accessible via keyboard shortcuts, so there is a built in way around the problem with the Ariane 737, although I've not really got around to trying that just yet. I think this is where Track-IR will pay dividends, so I'm glad I have that!There are numerous useful click spots in the VC which allow you to hide items temporarily to avoid having to shift your view too much, for example, you can hide the pilot's seats by clicking on the seat area and they completely disappear, click on the adjustment track on the cockpit floor and you get them back. You can do the same with the control columns too, by clicking on the bit where they meet the cockpit floor. There are numerous nice touches in the VC's usuability too, for example, the 'idiot board' checklist on the control yokes is clear enough to use, and the memory aid button which slides alongside the checklist points can be moved on the control yoke, so you can actually use the thing properly like the real one, that works on both control columns too incidentally, so it's certainly no slapdash attempt at a virtual cockpit. Shift your view around and you get a keypad which will allow you to control cabin announcements, and these are good, with one for each phase of the flight. Similarly, the galley is there and you can play around with that if you like, in addition to this, there is an entire menu up where FSUIPC appears on the main FS menu that will allow you to control numerous features such as calling for fuel trucks, getting a ground power unit connected up, controlling the doors etc, and the doors are not simply open/shut affairs, they have to be worked properly with regard to automatic arming so that the escape slides don't deploy, although I don't think the slides are actually modeled themselves, but the airstairs are.As far as functionality goes, there are some things missing, but a good deal of that appears to be by design rather than by mistake, for example, the nav data is limited to some extent, and whilst some people might complain about that - and I'll certainly detail what's missing in a review - in actual fact its not too far removed from reality to have it that way, after all, a British Airways 737 based at Glasgow would not have the entire world database of airports sat in its FMC when it did not need that data, and in practice a good many airliners tend to only have the data relevant to where they operate in their computers, which are not hugely powerful compared to the one sat on your desktop. Nevertheless, since we are talking about a simulated 737 that simmers will want to use all around the world, it is a shortcoming, and one of those occasions where being less realistic than the real thing is actually a plus point for a simmer, but I think someone noted that Ariane are working on that aspect of things (I'll investigate that too of course, but I believe that's more or less the current state of affairs). Even so, it will load an FSX flight plan with no problems whatsoever, which is something that one or two other FSX add-ons don't like to do (notably the Wilco Citation, which always bombs when I try and do that in FSX).As it stands, you can input data yourself if you like, so it's not the disaster it might seem and there are SIDs and STARs in there, although it might not please some people to have to stick a lot of information in manually, even if that's what real airline pilots sometimes find themselves having to do. Other stuff relating to the CDU seems to make quite a lot of practical sense to me from what I've noticed, i.e it has some things missing, but they are functions which under normal circumstances would not be used by the crew, so you can equate that to the fact that the fuel filler caps don't open up on most FS airliners, but it doesn't stop you sticking fuel in them. Conversely, there's some stuff in the FMC which I've not seen simulated on other add-on airliners, and it's fairly in depth realism stuff too, aimed at the real propellerheads. With regard to that 'putting the weight in the FMC' issue that people were discussing on this thread, you can put it in no problem at all, and you don't have to pause the sim to do so, although it does load up the flight with the aircraft fully loaded and topped up fully with fuel, so you do have to reduce the weight a bit to get things working properly (this via the normal FS load/fuel menu, rather than a dedicated utility). As people have noted, the fix page is not functional on the CDU, and whilst there is a promise that this is coming, at present it aint there, so if that's something you'd miss, then you'd have to decide for yourself whether or not you'd want to buy it and hope the patch turns up, but it's worth noting that there is definitely pressure on the developer to come up with the goods, because if that's a deal breaker for people, and there's a PMDG alternative that has it working, then it would clearly affect sales.There is one disappointment I found, and that is that the VSD is not simulated on the flight displays, and I was kind of hoping that it would be, but, you can go on the Ariane support forum and suggest stuff you'd like to see added in patches, and this does evidently receive attention, so maybe someone will suggest it, maybe I'll do so myself and see what reaction it gets. On that subject, worth noting too is that there are patches you can download from the main Ariane site which add functionality and tweeks to things, and contrary to what some people have suggested, they are free, which does at least show that you are not simply fobbed off with something that is busted or needs adjusting, and I know that's true because I downloaded them, and saw the improvements.It all looks pretty good so far, and the functionality of things such as the overhead, engine, fuel, hydraulics and electrical system operations is without doubt among the best, but keep in mind that I've not really gone over things with a fine-toothed comb yet, so there may be things missing which you would consider a deal breaker that I've not found out about yet. Look out for the Avsim review if you are unsure about whether you want to buy it, because that's another thing definitely not in doubt - it aint cheap.Al

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I am thankful for the in depth answer. I will wait until the review to see what the in depth story is.You are right, this is a lot of money, hence the hesitation.

I'll be honest with you, I'm yet to be convinced it actually is worth over 100 Bucks. It's a nice thing to be sure, and if you want an NG in FSX then maybe the price you pay, is the price you pay for wanting it. i.e does being three times the price of the Wilco 737 that works in both FS9 and FSX mean that it is three times better, and if it isn't, is the price justifiable.Other developers are coming up to that price point for fancy add-ons, so I think the deciding factor is likely to be just how much the limited functionality of the FMC weighs against other add-ons for the same price that are without that limitation. I'm still investigating on that score before I can really say how much it limits things, although I suspect it's not as bad as it at first appears. Let's not forget that there appear to be a lot of plusses in its favour too, notably the Virtual Cockpit, which I think it is fair to say has a good claim to being the best one there is. But I'm not exactly in love with the fact that you pay for repaints either, although in my case I tend to do my own paint jobs, so that's less of a worry for me, but I have to remember that many users aren't inclined to paint the things themselves. So that should be born in mind too if you are undecided.Al

With regard to that 'putting the weight in the FMC' issue that people were discussing on this thread, you can put it in no problem at all, and you don't have to pause the sim to do so, although it does load up the flight with the aircraft fully loaded and topped up fully with fuel, so you do have to reduce the weight a bit to get things working properly (this via the normal FS load/fuel menu, rather than a dedicated utility). Al

Thanks for clarifying that, Al. So the Gross Weight problem is not caused by the FMS. Instead, it's a problem with the documentation, and in particular the official FAQ, which suggest all sorts of irrelevant remedies like stopping the engines and pressing "Pause". Somewhere in their documentation, Ariane need to make it clear that both weights and CofG need to be within specific limits in order to allow the input. They also need to delete those entries in the FAQ.

Ariane feels that they do not have the time to manage or admin a forum.

If that is so, signmanbob, do you know why their official website says "Our forum has many technicians and support staff willing to answer questions in French, German, Spanish, Dutch and Italian. Pleasee log in and search for the question or information you need. FOrum hours are 24 hours seven days a week excluding some public holidays and admin days."? Or perhaps someone representing Ariane could answer that question. It is curious that in the course of an 11-page Ariane thread in a major forum such as AVSIM's, there has been not one peep from anyone claiming to represent Ariane, giving an official response. Most other manufacturers are not so shy. Perhaps India Knight of Ariane, whose news item is featured in the first post in this thread, could do this. She could also explain what happened to the "Gold Card" for loyal customers in 2009, as well as her other promises.

We are developing a new loyal user gold card scheme for the new year which we aim to be made available to everyone along with the promise of a gift for new FSX product purchases this Christmas and a new email center almost ready for launch will change the way we make contact and keep you informed.

I really have a hard time agreeing with a review that would say that it is not complex with the flight system. If you don't follow normal procedures starting up and flying the Ariane Boing models, you won't get out of the shoot. So many simmers can't even figure out how to light up the DUs because they don't read the manual that Ariane provides with the sim (and yes, I believe you can print it now).

The review didnt say it wasnt complex, it said it was above some of the simpler sims out there (the Ctrl+E) ones, but that it lacked some of the advanced features to really claim that it was an Advanced sim, as you point out below, its good that these things may be being worked on, and when they and others are implemented then that claim may stand ground, but at present as it lacks some systems that others have then by fact of that it means they are more advanced, even if Ariane as other features like VC etc that others dont.

I do agree that at this time, Ariane does not simulate the air conditioning and pressurization systems like PMDG or Level D. The pre-flight tests (fire, APU, oxigen, etc) are also not simulated like Leonardo's Maddog MD80 yet. From what I've been told, and like you say about a work in progress, all of these systems will eventually be simulated. But I wouldn't expect it to be freely distributed. Patches or service packs to the present products would be free, but new products with new features probably will come at a price. Remember that 737s are the only thing that Ariane makes. When they put out a new product, it will still be a 737. I think this is where some people have a problem. They think, "There charging me for another 737 and not giving it to me for free because I already bought their 737!". No...that's all they make is 737s. When they release a new product down the road, it will still be a 737. That is what they specialize in, it is all that they make and their vision is to perfect it as they release new versions.

No issue here that if a major upgrade to the 737 is charged for, even if it still a 737, just like PMDG wont be giving their NGX away for free, my point is that the sim is already more expensive than most sims available that ALREADY contain these new development features they are hopeing to release, so having paid more than other sims, then having to pay more again to get features I already have is a bit off, and again against the claim of it being a High end sim, it may become that, but isnt at the present price.Also I heard a rumour they are making a 767, so perhaps maybe 737 isnt all that they do!

Opinions on price are very subjective. If you are used to paying between $30 and $55 for an airline sim, you may bulk when you see one offered for more than $100. There are a lot of factors that go into price. One of those considerations are definitely volume. If someone is selling around a million downloads, plus published CDs, you can sell them much less than someone who maybe is only selling a half million. Volume brings the price down. Yet the cost of development doesn't change. The same research has to be done, the same labor and payroll has to be met, etc.This is why Microsoft can sell FSX cheaper than most complex airline sims. FSX is more complicated than any airline sim, yet it only sells for $35 as a set of CDs. But the volume is huge.

Thanks for the lesson in Business, but I think you didnt read what I said, or have repeated again above, Price isnt a issue for me, if it was

This is the kind of sim I really want, blows Ariane out of the water, and even PMDG cant compete with this one....small snag it costs 10million, and wont fit in my office.Im on the left(captains seat as it a bit dark), we were dumped in the middle of knowwhere then had to find ourway back with the aircraft unconfigured, high and fast. Fully manual flying and manual throttle control. The guy on the left is my work collegue who fly's after me, you can hear the instuctor giving some tips as we fly(see the link on the page)Following that flight we had a competition of taking the aircraft off, tear dropping it back and landing it back on the opposite end, we were timed from brakes off to parking brake back on. No video of those flights (People couldnt stand up to film as we threw the aircraft all over the place!) 6 of us had a go at this 4 crashed in various forms, either a complete crash, or just ended up on the grass first other than the runway, I actually got it down and in the fastest time! (head Swells!) So you can see my desire for a Sim that supports hardware, operates fully and is more than a SIMTOY...hopefully at some point Ariane, PMDG will achieve this, but my money is still on the LEVELD 757 as at present they the only ones to have achieved it with their 767.RegardsJamesThe Link: James Flying 737-800 levelD sim

I'm sure the statement earlier in the thread said this sim was aimed more at the professionals?How can that possibly be so if the FIX page is inoperable? I don't believe it's a fair point just to say.... 'but that's comming soon'. Not for a product of that cost.Just my opinion, not said to argue.I'm extremely grateful to all the folk here who've input so much information. Although not an Ariane fan (trouble in the past), I think it's fantastic that this thread has been left to run it's course. I don't ever recall seeing an Ariane thread like this before. To me, this suggest's that both Ariane and Avsim are moving in a good direction.Who knows, maybe I'll even try them again......