Bob,I put my Admin hat away for awhile and I'll give you my thoughts as a simmer.Forgive my bad English but I am sure you'll understand me.If I react today it's because I think it's time to stop this "do-gooder-ism" and tell the truth.

I think the problem is that you are not capable of "taking off your Admin hat".As an Admin, you can say what ever you like (as a simmer) and I cannot respond honestly because I will always be responding to an "Admin".Up to this point your handling of this thread has been very fair, but by stepping into the thread yourself, I feel you have breached the authority and responsibility that is entrusted to an Admin.

1) Why should people be rude if they get a friendly support? Why would they wish to discourage others to buy a product they love?

Someone simply asked a question about the forum and I answered with my own thoughts and experience from the last two years of being an Ariane customer and using the Ariane customer forum. Why should you be so offended by that?Officially, I have no idea why they don't open up the forum. The posts from the customers that they have that actually come on the forum now are no different than what you would read on the Level D or PMDG forum. I do not see any rude posts. The answer that I gave was merely from my own observation. It may be wrong.Of course, you being an "Admin", I could get myself into trouble for just saying that.

How things are going on PMDG, LDS, Flight1, Dreamfleet etc...etc... forums??If Ariane's customers are angry today...

I didn't say that Ariane customers were angry today. I said that I believe in the past the open part of the forum has presented problems from people who were not customers. The customer forum presents no problem at all.

I've purchased their first product in April 2005. It took two weeks before I had the activation key. The product was very expensive and totally unflyable. I tried to reach them for several bug fixes and I wrote a dozen of VERY POLITE emails. I never received an answer until I told them that I will complain and ask my bank to cancel the deal. Then I received an mail full of threat and frankly "maffia style".

I can't comment on that because I had never heard of Ariane back in 2005. I didn't start purchasing their products until a couple of years after that.I, along with many others, have received excellent support and service from Ariane, for very enjoyable products for the last couple of years. In my experience, they have also been very polite and friendly with their customers, so what you are saying is very inconsistent with my personal experience.David, I email Ariane periodically and if you would like, I would be willing to see if I can help resolve your problem by communicating with them.

I then swore to myself that I will never deal with those guys again.Time have passed and I understand that they have changed their relationship with customers now. It's all credit to them.I also understand that they have drasically improved their product. Well done.

David, people do change and should be given every opportunity to.

So twenty days ago I have purchased their full documentation (around 85 euros). Because I am a real qualified pilot I wanted to see how they were explaining systems and procedures before eventually purchasing their new product. Last week I sent them a VERY POLITE email wondering why it took that long to receive the parcel with the manuals. Did they answer? No. Did I receive the parcel today? No. Eastern holidays?? No, it's just a three days weekend, right?.

I also purchased the manuals a couple of months ago and it took quite a while to get them. They did come and are very nice. One focuses on the Ariane sim and how to properly use it and the other is like a 737 FCOM.I don't know why it takes so long to get them but I can guess...my thoughts on this are that I believe that they don't keep an inventory of them in stock. I believe when they get enough orders, they go to the printer and have around 250 or so printed at a time, then send those out and start stacking new orders.If you would like, I would be happy to contact them and see if they can locate the status of your order or you can contact them directly. They got behind on answering their email, but I believe they are getting caught up since they answered mine last night.

2) About forumsI can understand that you love their product, that you have a wonderful relationship with Ariane's team, that you'd like to help changing their bad reputation but please don't make a fool out of us trying to explain that this poor guy is a student, he is working on his instrument license blah blah.Ariane charges something like $100 for their product, charges for liveries, charges to have printed manuals (what a shame!) and they don't have some spare quids to open a "normal" forum???? They need a volunteer that doesn't have time?

I have spoken to Chris, the one that owns the forum, a lot through the forum and this is what he told me himself. If that makes you feel like a "fool" then I apologize.This is the truth, not a story, and I do take offense to you referring to my answer as "blah, blah". I believe that is being very unfair on your part, especially being an admin.If Ariane feels that they don't have the time or desire to admin a forum, that's their business. There is no requirement to have a forum. How Chris finds the time or resources to do as much as he does is surprising to me. I think it was very nice of him to take it on himself to even start a forum where Ariane customers can meet. Ariane really has nothing to do with that forum. It is more of an unofficial forum for Ariane customers.

So they don't open a forum to avoid those ugly simmers spending their time in bashing and insulting.So their forum doesn't exist because this student doesn't have time.So they don't answer to emails because they are on vacations.So it take them three, four, six days to send a registration key and twenty days to send the manuals probably because one of them has caught a cold.

The forum does not belong to Ariane, it is an unofficial, privately owned customer forum.Do you answer business emails when you are on vacation?No, it usually takes just 48 hours within working days.

Sorry Bob but we are not in a kindergarten.Will you call my post "bashing"? Will you believe that I am motivated by any resentment?No because you exactly know what I mean.This is business. We are customers not friends, and above all not suckers.Despite all your efforts to rehabilitate this company and justify every one of their breach of trust I for one am not convinced at all.The day Ariane will respect their customers, stop their greed and behave like other serious company they will not have to be affraid to open a forum and no one will complain.I wish them to succeed. They are probably on the good track but there is still a long road to cover before they win my trust.

David, you sound very angry to me. It sounds to me that you have harbored a hatred for Ariane for a long time and that now you just can't hold it back any longer.I do think your statements are unfounded but I don't think that you are in kindergarten, you type too good. :( Bob

You see Bob, we are a very democratic forum, I didn't ban you!! :-))More seriously, forumers will judge if your comments make sense or not.You are free to say what you think of me or any Avsim staff and I am free to say what I think of a product as far as everything is said politely.

David, you sound very angry to me. It sounds to me that you have harbored a hatred for Ariane for a long time and that now you just can't hold it back any longer.I do think your statements are unfounded but I don't think that you are in kindergarten, you type too good. :(

Believe me my friend I live in a very beautiful but hard country where I have a bunch of reasons to be angry.FS is for me nothing but a (wonderful) hobby.I have got over three wars as an IAF pilot and if once I lose my self-control it won't be because of an FS addon :-)Thank you very much for your proposal to speak with them but if a company needs friends to intercede in order to deliver a product to a customer (no matter who she/he is), I don't call this a serious company. They didn't take so long to encash the

David, you sound very angry to me. It sounds to me that you have harbored a hatred for Ariane for a long time and that now you just can't hold it back any longer.I do think your statements are unfounded but I don't think that you are in kindergarten, you type too good. :( Bob

Bob please, you have obviously been on all the right courses :( , but please stop what you're doing.... It sounds like' you are just trying to turn this thread into a powerplay. There really is no need to defend every single critisism. Believe it or not, some are actually justified.

I have got over three wars as an IAF pilot and if once I lose my self-control it won't be because of an FS addon :-)Thank you very much for your proposal to speak with them but if a company needs friends to intercede in order to deliver a product to a customer (no matter who she/he is), I don't call this a serious company. They didn't take so long to encash the

Just another update for people who are following the saga: Forum access is now activated for me. Not had the email telling me that, but since I was busy at work today it may possibly have diverted onto my wife's computer. However, when I got in from work I gave logging onto the forum a shot and succeeded, so there probably is an email about it kicking around somewhere.As we've learned, the forum is apparently not an Ariane forum, but a proxy one from an enthusiast which is sort of on behalf of them, and whilst that is somewhat unusual, I guess it's no different from some other FS developers, who effectively have the same arrangement with Avsim.I gave it a quick peruse and it seems a friendly enough place, not looked at everything on it, but there doesn't exactly seem to be a tirade of complaints and angry comments from disgruntled customers on there from what I could tell in my brief inspection, in fact it appeared quite the opposite to me.I'll set about reading the manuals for the Ariane 737-900ER tonight and with a bit of luck the technical manual for the real thing should arrive tomorrow, enabling me to make an educated appraisal of stuff, which I'll probably need, since the 900ER is very different from other 737 models in a lot of respects. It certainly requires a very gentle rotation with that big-&@($* tail overhang, that's for sure (it's 44 feet longer than the original 737-100). It's faster than other 737s too, despite having a 187,700lb MTOW, up to 215 passenger capacity and a 3,200 mile range courtesy of those extra fuel tanks, so that seems like it could be a pretty versatile FS aircraft to me as long as Ariane's flight model is on the numbers.Al

This thread has been an enjoyable one so far, and I have learned a lot about Arianne, their products, and customer support (or lack of, to some people). I guess Bob if you can temper your comments with some empathy it would probably go down better with those who have not experienced the same stellar service that you have. :(

You see Bob, we are a very democratic forum, I didn't ban you!! :-))More seriously, forumers will judge if your comments make sense or not.You are free to say what you think of me or any Avsim staff and I am free to say what I think of a product as far as everything is said politely.Believe me my friend I live in a very beautiful but hard country where I have a bunch of reasons to be angry.FS is for me nothing but a (wonderful) hobby.I have got over three wars as an IAF pilot and if once I lose my self-control it won't be because of an FS addon :-)Thank you very much for your proposal to speak with them but if a company needs friends to intercede in order to deliver a product to a customer (no matter who she/he is), I don't call this a serious company. They didn't take so long to encash the

Just another update for people who are following the saga: Forum access is now activated for me. Not had the email telling me that, but since I was busy at work today it may possibly have diverted onto my wife's computer. However, when I got in from work I gave logging onto the forum a shot and succeeded, so there probably is an email about it kicking around somewhere.

No, funny enough Al, somehow your email was deverted to me. Why I got it is beyond me when it has your email address at the top and mine is not even on it. It's probably an AOL glitch, but I will forward it to you.Thank you,Bob

As a "commercial member" here at Avsim (I don't know where they got that from...? I haven't made a penny off this hobby, in fact I've lost many many thousands of them) I can only see that Bob has got to have some sort of insider information. After a lengthy post like his response to David, it is pretty clear he is not a "normal" member here or at Ariane. I'm sure I'm not the only one with doubts. This thread really wasn't about Bob, but it is quickly becoming that way.A welcoming public forum, great customer service, and legitimate pricing are key to being successful. Ariane seems to be falling flat on its face on each of those right now. Until they change, many people, myself included, will continue to be shied from their name. David IS correct in what he's been saying.All of that being said, I look forward to Al's review. It probably won't make any difference to me, but I will enjoy reading it and the conversation that is sure to follow :)

As a "commercial member" here at Avsim (I don't know where they got that from...? I haven't made a penny off this hobby, in fact I've lost many many thousands of them) I can only see that Bob has got to have some sort of insider information. After a lengthy post like his response to David, it is pretty clear he is not a "normal" member here or at Ariane. I'm sure I'm not the only one with doubts. This thread really wasn't about Bob, but it is quickly becoming that way.

You mean this thread here?http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=1505

A couple of obsevations.......Bob in his explanation about the Ariane forum and the young fellow running it who is indeed a student has been in a most pleasant way accused of lying......others who support the product are at times accused of being on the payroll.Seems as if current reality has no place here.....anyone can have a bad experience in the past with a producer of anything whether it is a car, a toaster oven or indeed and flight simulation add on. The question is.....how is that developer doing today in customer service, product quality etc. And, my experience with them in all aspects has been top notch. I will vote with my wallet and purchase another product from them. I fully expect to have it suggested in voicing support that I am on the payroll, again. Just to clarify that I am a professional pilot well into my fourth decade of earning my living in a cockpit, both fixed and rotary wing.It wasn't that long ago here that it was the in thing to slam Capt Sim. Got to wonder which developer is next.

A couple of obsevations.......Bob in his explanation about the Ariane forum and the young fellow running it who is indeed a student has been in a most pleasant way accused of lying......others who support the product are at times accused of being on the payroll.Seems as if current reality has no place here.....anyone can have a bad experience in the past with a producer of anything whether it is a car, a toaster oven or indeed and flight simulation add on. The question is.....how is that developer doing today in customer service, product quality etc. And, my experience with them in all aspects has been top notch. I will vote with my wallet and purchase another product from them. I fully expect to have it suggested in voicing support that I am on the payroll, again. Just to clarify that I am a professional pilot well into my fourth decade of earning my living in a cockpit, both fixed and rotary wing.It wasn't that long ago here that it was the in thing to slam Capt Sim. Got to wonder which developer is next.

First off, I am convinced that Bob IS NOT on the Ariane payroll. I say this because his first few posts about Ariane at Flyaway Simulations were less than supportive of the company, in fact, he once suggested not purchasing products from Ariane due to what I seem to recall was an installation issue he had. He noted that after contacting customer service his opinion changed dramatically, and since he has been very supportive and enthusiastic about Ariane and there products. I've seen Bob accused of being on the Ariane payroll many, many times, but I don't subscribe to that unsubstantiated claim. My only problem with the sign man is that he doesn't seem to proof read his posts before submitting them. He suggested that I was "bashing" Ariane, whereas in reality I never said anything other than that I had a bad experience one time. He said that I did not want Ariane to continue to try to protect there products, but once again I NEVER made any such claim. I think Bob is just enthusiastic about Ariane and a very satisfied customer, but some of his posts remove all credibility.http://flyawaysimulation.com/postt31947.htmlThis link is all I need to know to add Bob to my list of those I will not take seriously. By calling AVSIMs investigation of Ariane "ignorant", and later referring to Avsim as "arrogant", he has shown that he is as biased in favor of Ariane as all those he claims to be against the company. In fairness, he did conclude his post by noting that AVSIM is a "great organization", but sprinkling sugar on dirt doesn't make it taste much better.

A couple of obsevations.......Bob in his explanation about the Ariane forum and the young fellow running it who is indeed a student has been in a most pleasant way accused of lying......others who support the product are at times accused of being on the payroll.Seems as if current reality has no place here.....anyone can have a bad experience in the past with a producer of anything whether it is a car, a toaster oven or indeed and flight simulation add on. The question is.....how is that developer doing today in customer service, product quality etc. And, my experience with them in all aspects has been top notch. I will vote with my wallet and purchase another product from them. I fully expect to have it suggested in voicing support that I am on the payroll, again. Just to clarify that I am a professional pilot well into my fourth decade of earning my living in a cockpit, both fixed and rotary wing.It wasn't that long ago here that it was the in thing to slam Capt Sim. Got to wonder which developer is next.

couldn't agree more - this witch hunt is embarassing, shamefull. I am very happy not to have paid attention to the anti-Ariane BS on these forums, john

Like I said, I ordered my manuals several months ago and just got them the other day. I have no doubt that you will also get yours. I know how printing is and they probably have to get a certain amount of orders before they can actually have the product printed.I will be glad to contact them and have them trace the status of your order or contact you with that information.

Bob,I would be very disappointed and dissatisfied if I had to wait several months for a manual. I ordered a computer part from a dealer a couple of months ago. The dealer couldn't deliver within three days as promised, but asked me if I would like to wait or prefered a refund. That's the way that professionals get satisfied customers, even if they can't deliver.When you offer to act on behalf of Ariane I get a little suspicious.

You mean this thread here?http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=1505

pontiuspilotus,I read the thread and I must say it's odd that Bob start to respond to posts about Ariane that are several years old.I have never done business with Ariane. All negative information about them have hold me off. I have visited their site and read through the product info on the X2, manuals and additional liveries. To me the information seemed vague. The very high prices and no printable manual still holds me off. It doesn't seem like a business managed by people committed to the community. It's pure business. It's so far from how Robert S. Randazzo and the team at PMDG runs their business (http://www.precisionmanuals.com/comp/pages/profile.html). It's so far from how Flight1, The Ground Environement team (Allen and Nick) and a lot of others run their businesses. In them I trust.This is only my opinion. Not based on any facts, just on gut feelings. But feelings are important to me.

That doesn't sound much like the horror stories we've heard, does it? Maybe all those rumours are just that, which, you will remember is why I coughed up for this product to review it, and find out the truth on that score. So, it seems I'm all set up to do that now.

Al, playing the "Devil's Advocate" for a moment......now that they know that you are intending to write a published review of their product, just how truly representative and unbiased will their "customer service attitude" be towards you?

This link is all I need to know to add Bob to my list of those I will not take seriously. By calling AVSIMs investigation of Ariane "ignorant", and later referring to Avsim as "arrogant", he has shown that he is as biased in favor of Ariane as all those he claims to be against the company. In fairness, he did conclude his post by noting that AVSIM is a "great organization", but sprinkling sugar on dirt doesn't make it taste much better.

Thanks for the info. These kind of posts might harm Ariane more than they help. Paradoxical. To some people the world is either all white or all black, nothing in between.@Bob, I'm now convinced that youre not affiliated with Ariane. I'm sorry that I was suspicious.