For what it's worth....This thread caught my eye as I've wondered about the Ariane 737 for some time. Since it's seemingly going to be quite a while before the PMDG 737NGX comes out, I figured I'd look at little deeper. No doubt the upcoming Avsim review will bring a wealth of info. I did send an email to Ariane last week asking for further details on the use of multiple monitors. Between the activation drama described in this thread, and not receiving a reply to my email, I did start to wonder about Ariane. I'm pretty easy going on stuff like this, no big deal. It did look like there was a pattern though.To my surprise, I received a reply today. My question to Ariane had to do with undocking the instrument panels and dragging them to other screens. The FAQ on their website seemed to elude to some manner in which "...our VC can be placed in a 2d 'flat panel' view...", but it wasn't clear to me just what all could be done, knowing that there are also some popup panels.Arian politely responded that for now, the answer is "no". "You need the more professional version (which we are working on and will be released to support both multiples and speed/fps).""No release date, keep an eye on the news please.""We apologise for the delay in replying."Well, fair enough. They were certainly up front, that the product wouldn't work for my multi monitor setup...yet. But it sounds like they have some enhancements coming that warrant keeping an eye on. In the mean time, I look forward to the Avsim review...and that dang PMDG 737NGX! Would someone please tell them to hurry up? Considering what PMDG did with the MD-11, I can just imagine that their 737NGX is going to be deluxe. That's one outfit that I know for sure makes excellent aircraft. I'll buy anything they put out the door! (Geez, I hope they don't branch out and start making a row boat simulation, or a garbage truck sim...then I'd have to draw the line.)Noel WBrisbane

As a "commercial member" here at Avsim (I don't know where they got that from...? I haven't made a penny off this hobby, in fact I've lost many many thousands of them) I can only see that Bob has got to have some sort of insider information. After a lengthy post like his response to David, it is pretty clear he is not a "normal" member here or at Ariane. I'm sure I'm not the only one with doubts. This thread really wasn't about Bob, but it is quickly becoming that way.

The "insider" information that you accuse me of having is available to any customer of Ariane. Thay give one-on-one email support and it is very easy to end up with an email "pen pal" when you start receiving support for a product that you purchase from them.

A welcoming public forum, great customer service, and legitimate pricing are key to being successful. Ariane seems to be falling flat on its face on each of those right now. Until they change, many people, myself included, will continue to be shied from their name. David IS correct in what he's been saying.

"Legitimate pricing" is a very vague and relative statement. Does that mean that if you can't afford it is not legitimate? Does that mean if you used to downloading free stuff anything is not ligitimate?Is a BMW priced legitimate when you can drive perfectly well a Yogo for 1/4th of the price?The "falling flat" is also your personal opinion and not the opinion of their real paying customers who are satisfied with the products. Those are the ones who are important to impress and who they are impressing.

All of that being said, I look forward to Al's review. It probably won't make any difference to me, but I will enjoy reading it and the conversation that is sure to follow :)

I agree. It's all in fun.

Al, playing the "Devil's Advocate" for a moment......now that they know that you are intending to write a published review of their product, just how truly representative and unbiased will their "customer service attitude" be towards you?

That's a fair point of course, but regardless of whether they greased the wheels a bit to get my product activated faster than normal in the hope that I'd somehow blow sunshine up their asses, then that's not the case, it won't alter how I review it. If it is good I will be honest and say it is, and if it sucks, I'll say that too, just like I would with any other product, and probably more so, because if I think I'm unjustly out of pocket by a hundred or so bucks, then I would be unlikely to pour praise on such a situation by virtue of the fact that I found that out four days sooner than everyone else does. Although in fairness I imagine it will probably not be quite so black and white as that, and most products are neither simply good/bad, but usually some way toward one side of that coin or the other.Here's an interesting notion, and in fact was part of why I decided to embark on this review odyssey: People have complained that Ariane charge for add-on paint jobs, and I must say I'm not a fan of that approach myself, but it does point to one rather obvious conundrum, and that is: who would buy such repaints if they couldn't even get the base package working? and if they do get it working and then discover it is not to their liking, would they then be inclined to buy additional stuff? That was what puzzled me, because it would seem to me that if nobody was satisfied with that business model, then Ariane would have long since abandoned it and perhaps decided to include the repaints in the base package as more of a dangling carrot, especially in view of another accusation which I have heard levelled at Ariane, which is that they are 'all show and no go'.So you can understand why it piqued my curiosity and why I was keen to get to the bottom of what seemed to me a paradox and something of a conundrum: some people say that it is bad, but apparently additional add-ons for it sell? This is the mystery that I hope to unravel, and not just for me.Al

The "insider" information that you accuse me of having is available to any customer of Ariane. Thay give one-on-one email support and it is very easy to end up with an email "pen pal" when you start receiving support for a product that you purchase from them.

signmanbob,I spend $200 on some products form a developer. Said developer states the products will be activated in 2 minutes to 48 hours after purchase and that activation e-mail address is manned 0800-1600 GMT minus weekends and holidays. This one e-mail address is the ONLY way to contact said developer. I buy the product and send the activation request the same day. Seven days later I still have no activation code and no further contact in any way, shape or form from said developer. Someone recommends against buying the developers products because of a recent purchase and issues activating the product, I then second that recommendation because I'm experiencing the same.Then someone says I'll send an e-mail to "so and so" regarding your activation issue. Then within a very few minutes everyone having said activation issues out of the blue receives their activation codes.You really expect me to beleive that you sent an e-mail to Ed at the same e-mail address that the rest of the world was supplied for the activation of their Ariane purchase??and your e-mail somehow magically gets received in lieu of the many customer activation requests that have not yet been answered??I would be telling you a lie if I did not say that I believe something smells fishy here in regards to your association with Ariane. What other conclusion can one draw?The bottom line is this, if Ariane decided to go on holiday and leave their e-commerce site up and running to conduct business, then potential customers should have been warned/informed via the e-commerce site to expect product activation delays due to the holiday. That is simple customer service.Regards,Bob Modrowski

its time for me to voice my opinionoverall Ariane 737 is a below average product (by the way i have owned and used 2 of their products 737-600 fof FS9 and 737-900 X1 for FSX)reasons (my personal experiences only)1. activation process is very cumbersome and long2. i could only activate my product ONCE, i have tried to activate them after i upgraded my hard drive and computer but was told to pay L20(about$40), so i dont believe that others can activate the product after computer upgrade or migration3. their 737-900 X1 was very buggy and was not fluid with lots of problems so they fixed the problems and renamed the plane as ver X2 AND charged a FULL price for it again and did not give any upgrade consideration or discount - so be careful with their future products 4. the product has a lot of eye candy - but thats about it5. their website is absolutely and totally confusing - they do not list the specifications of the 737 but claim to have everything working which is not the case6. their FMS was mostly unusable, could only be used for very basic navigation -6a. you can not input any sid or stars or waypoints that are not in their database, the VNAV does not work, you cannot put any constraints for reaching specific flight levels and speeds (as per ATC instructions etc), the FIX does not work, the weights and degrade dont work for me, you can not alter your flight plan in flight - it crashes7. their HUD is very primitive and not emulated well8. they have NO support, their email system is poor and they dont respond to your questions or requests and simply tell you to read their manual better9. they dont have a forum and rely on a volunteer simmer to host it for them, the problem with that is Ariane tells the administrator of the forum to delete the posts that they feel are negative (i have personally seen at least 5 posts removed - or disappear from the forum) i can go on for a lot longer, but i will stop herethis is simply my opinion, and Bob please do not reply to this trying to defend or justify Ariane postion - it is only my evaluation of the product (i am sure i am not alone)Bo

I think we all get the point. Is there really any reason to keep discussing the same thing over and over and over again?

You really expect me to beleive that you sent an e-mail to Ed at the same e-mail address that the rest of the world was supplied for the activation of their Ariane purchase??and your e-mail somehow magically gets received in lieu of the many customer activation requests that have not yet been answered??

Bob, I don't really care what you believe. Believe what you want. That is the way it is. If you emailed Ariane and didn't get an answer then check your spam folder, because chances are that is where your answer is.Ariane has always answered every email that I have ever sent. Every single one, no exceptions.The one time I thought they didn't answer, I found the answer in my spam folder. But you believe whatever cranks your tractor.Actually Bob, I really don't believe your $200 story either. Your story is not even consistent. The Ariane's 737 doesn't cost $200. You probably don't even know how much it costs. If you did spend that much (which you wouldn't have) why are you willing to just roll over and play dead when you don't get an answer. I don't believe you would. I think you didn't get an answer because you didn't buy anything.

I would be telling you a lie if I did not say that I believe something smells fishy here in regards to your association with Ariane. What other conclusion can one draw?

If you smell something fishy, you need to look under your couch pillows because there is nothing fishy here and I believe your telling some lies anyway because your story doesn't jive.The truth is that you don't know what you are talking about. You have no bases at all in saying that I have any association with Ariane other than what I say I do. Your blowing smoke and hoping there is enough shallow thinkers around to be influenced by your empty statements. I really think that you are underestimating your surroundings.

The bottom line is this, if Ariane decided to go on holiday and leave their e-commerce site up and running to conduct business, then potential customers should have been warned/informed via the e-commerce site to expect product activation delays due to the holiday. That is simple customer service.

No, the bottom line is that you expect everything and everybody to operate the way that you think they should, by the policies that you like. People have reasons for operating their companies, forums, etc. certain ways and by certain rules and policies. Those ways may not tickle your fancy just quite the way you think they should, but that doesn't mean that they are not legitimate.Drugstores may not be open as late as you would like. Banks may not cash your checks just the way you would like. The list is endless, but all of these are established, honest business with rules and policies and they are not going to change them because Bob Modrowski spoke his dissatisfaction with them. If you have your own company, then you can create policy.

I think we all get the point. Is there really any reason to keep discussing the same thing over and over and over again?

I think ONE of the reasons we are going over and over this again, apart from the Bob issue, is that there is a great desire in the community for more aircraft. The rate at which we are seeing new aircraft and the number of good suppliers as really dried up. FSX for all it as brought that is good, it is also not the best version of FS to come out, it may allow for new features and techniques but as also made other techniques that developers used difficult to now do, so requires a better team to put the aircraft together, hence the time frames we now see before a product gets out to us. I dont think there is a simmer around that doesnt want to buy the PMDG 737X and for those on FSX they have no alternative at the moment as the old 737 from PMDG doesnt work in FSX. So hence why everyone as been showing interest in the Ariane product.This is good, we want more developers, we want choice, it drives the hobby, If Ariane have something in their sim it more likley to make PMDG try and make it better and so on. Ariane should be Capatalising on this, by ensuring happy customers, both from the quality of their product (Which we shall see with the review) but also with the customer support. I want Ariane to be a success, I want to see happy customers, because I want more developers in the market, making more planes, that have more features. PMDG may be good, but some competition isnt going to hurt them, its going to help push them even more.You are never going to please everyone, as has Al stated no sim is ever perfect, there always points that could be mproved, read the PMDG or Level D forums and people still post requests or ideas. Like me, I dont buy PMDG at the moment because of the lack of Hardware support by their products, and although I have had an Email back from Ariane regarding hardware support, it appears they are working towards that, but at present it doesn support it, so again unlikley to be a purchse I make.I have to agree with the other comments people make, on things like activation, support etc, Ariane need to inform people more that sometimes there may be a delay, Communication is key in business, I have no issue that over the holiday activation may be slower due to the system they use, but if they posted that on their site, then people wouldnt be so miffed when they hear nothing for days, as it was what they were expecting.However on the subject of activation, as it seems that PMDG are looking at changing their methods also due to Piracy issues. I totally understand the need to protect the software so it doesnt become easily pirated, but piracy will never be stopped. But In general if something is priced fairly, and in fairly I mean priced to represent what you are getting, to quote someone above yes you can pay 40000 for a bmw or a 1/4 for another manufacturer. But if the price for the other manufactur was high but not the quality of the BMW then thats not fair pricing. And the activation system is fair to those that purchase the software then that will mean less(and I say less as you will still have piracy) will buy it. Because to me it seems at present that you can do the legitimate thing with Ariane and pay your 70 pounds to buy the product, but then wait days or weeks to use it while you wait for activation, or download it from a torrent or usenet site and have it working in hours, hardly and encouragement to do the right thing is it? Please note I dont pirate software and do not agree with it, however I do think that activation systems shouldnt punish the person that as actually brought a product.So to Ariane I say, sort out your customer service, sort out your activation methods, continue to work on your product and enhance it to make it a desirable product, because the market is there for it, I want to see them succeed, so that hopefully they make other aircraft, provide competition in the market. and finally, price, from what I have seen so far i dont think it justifies its price, its about 20 pound over priced compared to what else is on the market of a similar or better standard.RegardsJames

The "falling flat" is also your personal opinion and not the opinion of their real paying customers who are satisfied with the products. Those are the ones who are important to impress and who they are impressing.

Wrong... If it were true, there would be no reason for advertising, reviews, or even a forum for opinions. We were/are ALL non-customers at some point. I'm glad the company doesn't share that same opinion, otherwise they would never improve and there would NEVER be a chance of me and many others buying their products.I would be a "real paying customer" if it looked like I would be satisfied with the product and its support.

1. activation process is very cumbersome and long

No more than many other software downloads that I have purchased. Theft is a huge reality in software and activation is the only way to cope with it.

2. i could only activate my product ONCE, i have tried to activate them after i upgraded my hard drive and computer but was told to pay L20(about$40), so i dont believe that others can activate the product after computer upgrade or migration

This statement is totally inaccurate. Ariane has activated my products several times without question or charge. If you read the Ariene customer forums you will see that no one has a problem with activation.

3. their 737-900 X1 was very buggy and was not fluid with lots of problems so they fixed the problems and renamed the plane as ver X2 AND charged a FULL price for it again and did not give any upgrade consideration or discount - so be careful with their future products

Again, this is not accurate. It was made clear in the website that the X2 is a totally new product from the ground up. Eaglesoft did the same thing with their Citation Xv1 and Citation Xv2. They charge full price for the Xv2 and will discontinue selling the Xv1 when the FSX product is released.In the wonderful world of pay-ware, companies are in the business to make a profit. If you want the new model, you pay for it. Not a difficult concept, really.If you buy a DVD player from BestBuy and two months later one comes out by the same company with Blu-ray capabilities, try taking your old one back and tell them you want to trade it even-up for the new Blu-ray DVD player without paying. The next thing you will hear is "Security...service desk please!"

4. the product has a lot of eye candy - but thats about it

There is some "eye-candy" but so is there with PMDG and others. Real commercial pilots have already said that the model is accurate. Of course you may be a real commercial airline pilot too. I don't want to speak without knowing.

5. their website is absolutely and totally confusing - they do not list the specifications of the 737 but claim to have everything working which is not the case

Also not accurate. Anyone can go and look at their website. All the specs and full discription for their product is right there. Now if you are talking about specs for a real 737, you may have to cough up some money there. FCOMs and systems manuals are not free. At least I don't think so. They may have some here as free downloads. I never checked.

6. their FMS was mostly unusable, could only be used for very basic navigation

Again this is not true, but you do have to read the manual to know how to work it. Most pages are functional along with VNAV path, N1, climb, cruise and decent speeds, CG is calculated from weight. Also you can put in fixes manually just like the real one.It is my understanding that real airline FMCs do not have the whole world's nav data stored in it's database. Only the trips that the plane makes are stored. If the plane has to make a trip it normally does not take, the database has to be updated and some fixes may have to be put in manually.

6a. you can not input any sid or stars or waypoints that are not in their database, the VNAV does not work, you cannot put any constraints for reaching specific flight levels and speeds (as per ATC instructions etc), the FIX does not work, the weights and degrade dont work for me, you can not alter your flight plan in flight - it crashes

I have never had a problem changing waypoints in my flightplan while in flight. This works on my X2 without any problems at all.Now the database is a problem that they are aware of and will be remedied soon with the released of the new FMS and NavData Manager that they have been working on.Fixes can be put in manually.Right now the FMS will figure VNAV path and fly the full path, both climb and decent, in VNAV. It will not accept modifications in VNAV right now, but I believe they are working on updating this.When they release the new FMS that goes with this new NavData Manager it should practically be as complete as the real thing.

7. their HUD is very primitive and not emulated well

It seems to be fine to me. I don't know what you are looking for in a HUD. It shows attitude, altitude, speed, VS, has a nav aid, shows heading, track and several other things. I have not seen a real HUD, but I can't imagine there is much more to show. I would think that the real HUD would be designed not to be cluttered and just show basic, needed information. Why would you want to see N1 or fuel level displayed on a HUD when the PNF is watching that.

8. they have NO support, their email system is poor and they dont respond to your questions or requests and simply tell you to read their manual better

Again, this is absolutely inaccurate. Their email system is excellent and you can also send them a PM from the forum for one-on-one free support. No real customer in the forums complains about not getting an answer to email support. This is the only place I ever see those complaints."Read the Manual" may seem to you not to be the answer you want to hear, but most of the time the solutions is glaring you in the face right there in the manual. People want to play with a simtoy without reading the manual. You may be able to do that with some simple dumbed down products, but when you purchase a more complex aircraft sim, you have to read the manual as much as it (ouch!) hurts.You will get the same answer from PMDG. I asked something about my MD11 without really thinking and the answer they gave me was "you have to look in the manual". These developers spend a lot of time writing, editing, proofing and explaining everything that they can think of in the manuals and provide them free with the product, yet many people have no interest in reading this wealth of information.

Bob, I don't really care what you believe. Believe what you want. That is the way it is. If you emailed Ariane and didn't get an answer then check your spam folder, because chances are that is where your answer is.Ariane has always answered every email that I have ever sent. Every single one, no exceptions.The one time I thought they didn't answer, I found the answer in my spam folder. But you believe whatever cranks your tractor.Actually Bob, I really don't believe your $200 story either. Your story is not even consistent. The Ariane's 737 doesn't cost $200. You probably don't even know how much it costs. If you did spend that much (which you wouldn't have) why are you willing to just roll over and play dead when you don't get an answer. I don't believe you would. I think you didn't get an answer because you didn't buy anything.If you smell something fishy, you need to look under your couch pillows because there is nothing fishy here and I believe your telling some lies anyway because your story doesn't jive.The truth is that you don't know what you are talking about. You have no bases at all in saying that I have any association with Ariane other than what I say I do. Your blowing smoke and hoping there is enough shallow thinkers around to be influenced by your empty statements. I really think that you are underestimating your surroundings.No, the bottom line is that you expect everything and everybody to operate the way that you think they should, by the policies that you like. People have reasons for operating their companies, forums, etc. certain ways and by certain rules and policies. Those ways may not tickle your fancy just quite the way you think they should, but that doesn't mean that they are not legitimate.Drugstores may not be open as late as you would like. Banks may not cash your checks just the way you would like. The list is endless, but all of these are established, honest business with rules and policies and they are not going to change them because Bob Modrowski spoke his dissatisfaction with them. If you have your own company, then you can create policy.

signmanbob,You are a real piece of work........and to think I actually stood up for you at the beginning of this thread.Lets do the math 737-800 X2, plus 3 livery packs that adds up to $198.48. Sorry I'm $1.62 off the mark.I guess my receipt from World Pay is fake also:Transaction ConfirmationPlease retain for your recordsThank youYour transaction has been processed by WorldPay, on behalf ofAriane Studios t/as Ariane AirSHOP.Safely. Securely. Welcome to WorldPay, trusted worldwide.Thank you for your custom.Transaction details:Transaction for the value of: USD 198.48Description: Aggregated itemsFrom: Ariane Studios t/as Ariane AirSHOPMerchant's cart ID: xxxxAuthorisation Date/Time: xx/xxx/xxxx xx:xx:xxWorldPay's transaction ID: xxxxxxxxxThis is not a tax receipt.PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING: We have processed your payment.Ariane Studios t/as Ariane AirSHOP has received your order,and we will inform you about delivery by sending a receipt which youcan download from by clicking on the red underlined words:DOWNLOAD.You can email us at [email protected] with any queries - pleasesupply your order details and mark the subject of the order in theSUBJECT header clearly to ensure a prompt response.If you cannot download from your receipt please visityour receipt page/account history at www.arianedesign.comand download the file from there.SHIPMENTS PLEASE NOTE: Shipments will not feature this optionso please make sure you didn't click on the word SHIPPING ifyou wanted to download.Thank you.EnquiriesThis confirmation only indicates that your transaction has beenprocessed successfully. It does not indicate that your order has beenaccepted. It is the responsibility of Ariane Studios t/as ArianeAirSHOP to confirm that your order has been accepted, and todeliver any goods or services you have ordered.If you have any questions about your order, please email ArianeStudios t/as Ariane AirSHOP at: [email protected], with thetransaction details listed above.Thank you for shopping with Ariane Studios t/as Ariane AirSHOP.When you submit your transaction for processing by WorldPay you confirm youracceptance of WorldPays shopper privacy policy, a copy of which can be viewed at:http://support.worldpay.com/shopper/privacy/To find out more about how your transaction was processed, visit WorldPays FrequentlyAsked Questions at:http://support.worldpay.com/shopper/faqs/For further information about Verified By Visa authentication anddetails on how you can enrol, please click the logo.Check my spam filter??? Gimme a friggin break like you don't think I'm smart enough to check it just in case. I checked the damn thing over ten times a day as I was awaiting activation.I'll repeat it again no activation till your magic e-mail......get your head out of your _rse and get a clue. If Ariane has anymore supporters with your class and tact they haven't a chance to better their postion in the flight sim community and that in itself is a crying shame. Because I happen to think that this aricraft actually has some fine qualities.Here's a couple of screenshots of the cockpit at night for any that are interested.Without Panel Flood LightsWith Panel Flood Lights

9. they dont have a forum and rely on a volunteer simmer to host it for them, the problem with that is Ariane tells the administrator of the forum to delete the posts that they feel are negative (i have personally seen at least 5 posts removed - or disappear from the forum)

A real private pilot that loves the Ariane Boeing so much that he takes it on himself to provide a customer forum. I don't see anything that is wrong with this. Where is the problem here?Deleting posts is only true if the rules that you agreed to when first choosing to join the forum are broken. The forum has a purpose. It is there for customers to help other customers with problems or questions that are not serious enough to warrant emailing Ariane support. The forum is also there to display screenshots, link films, talk about the 737 aircraft, share stories or give pointers and share information. It is very functional for what it is designed to do. That is why he has closed it to only customers. The only threads that get deleted are things that relate to activation and it is made more than clear not to discuss problems with activation on the forums. There is a convenient way provided for that and it makes sense because people don't need to see others activation information.

i can go on for a lot longer, but i will stop herethis is simply my opinion, and Bob please do not reply to this trying to defend or justify Ariane postion - it is only my evaluation of the product (i am sure i am not alone)

Whoops, too late, I already did! :( Oh well...but then, that's all anything here is. Every post here is just people's opinions, so this one is really no different than any other post.

Sargeski do you think you could post some day shots of the VC at that resolution :( Also, how is the FPS compared to say the PMDG MD-11 or LevelD 767?Thanks.

Well, I guess if you buy the whole grocery store you're going to have a big bill! :( You were making it sound like you paid $200 for the 737. Add in three livery packages and you get close to $200.

I'll repeat it again no activation till your magic e-mail......get your head out of your _rse and get a clue. If Ariane has anymore supporters with your class and tact they haven't a chance to better their postion in the flight sim community and that in itself is a crying shame. Because I happen to think that this aricraft actually has some fine qualities.

And you call this a proper way to communicate on a forum. If you don't get the answer you want you just personally insult someone. Yeah...that's a real smart solution. And then call yourself an authority on judging who has "class" and who don't...mmmm.

You are a real piece of work........and to think I actually stood up for you at the beginning of this thread.

You stood up for me, then later you call me a liar and I'm suppose to bow down to you and pay homage? :( I think that's asking a lot!

Sargeski do you think you could post some day shots of the VC at that resolution :( Also, how is the FPS compared to say the PMDG MD-11 or LevelD 767?Thanks.

kiwikat,I will post some tomorrow for you when I return from work. Right now, I need to get some sleep. I'm in the middle of radiation treatments atm and its flat out starting to kick my &@($*. If there is anythnig in particular that you would like a picture of, please let me know and I will be happy to oblige you. I only have about 8 hours logged with the aircraft thus far but I would say its on par with if not better than the PMDG 747 on framerate.