"You sound like you'll be very unbiased ......NOT!"That's unnecessary and has NO place in this forum. Alan has spent his own money, quite a lot of it I might add, to review a product for us. I see no indication that he will be anything but fair and unbiased. I find it sickening that someone (signmanbob) who hunts down Ariane threads across the internet in constant defense of the company could possibly accuse anyone else of being bias. I have searched your screen name here and other FS forums and noticed that you have made it a habit to defend Ariane with the same repetative technique........seems like Alan is as unbiased as they come in comparison.Sorry if you've got to delete this Geoff, but c'mon.

I'm sorry if that puts you shorts in a wad, rightseater, but from the post that he put first announcing his "review", it was obvious to the blind that Al didn't have any intention of doing an unbiased review.

I have searched your screen name here and other FS forums and noticed that you have made it a habit to defend Ariane with the same repetative technique

Obviously you haven't found where I have also defended PMDG for the price of their new MD11 or all of the times I defended Captain Sim for his beautiful 757 or C130. Or maybe Airsimmer for what they choose to charge on their upcoming release.Too many "luke-warm", part-time simmers are not willing to pay the price for quality, premium aircraft and would rather whine at anything over $30, which they are willing to pay as long as it comes with 5000 free liveries.I read the next post from Al, and see that he also has reconsidered his words. Now I also reconsider mine. Maybe he is a candidate for an unbiased review.From my perspective, I have also use Photoshop CS4, Illustrator and a couple of dedicated sign programs that run over $2000 each.Photoshop has tightened the reins on their activation process and it is much stricter than it used to be. With my sign programs, they run off of USB dongles that if you loose one, you pay over $100 to replace it (if you have kept your user number) or you don't use your purchased software at all.How Ariane feels they need to protect their software from stinking pirates, in my opinion, is completely their business and their right.The same ones who complain the most about activation processes put in place by developers, more than likely, would be the first ones to download illegal copies if the opportunity came their way.I'm glad that developers are finding ways to protect the integrity of their software and the security of their profits. This means that they can stay in business and continue developing quality simulations for those of us that really love them.Sure it is an inconvenience. It is for me too, but just requires a little more patience on the part of the consumer.But gosh sakes, don't be mad at the developers! Be mad at the stinking pirates. They're the ones that are bringing this down on us.If you had purchased Ariane products for a while, like I have, you would see that Ariane is working to simplify their activation process and make it more user friendly.They are now working with Cody Bergland of Jaggyroads films, who has agreed to create a small video that will be included in every product and clearly explain the activation process to eliminate confusion all together.

With regard to all the comments on this and other Ariane related threads (and Captain sim ones too occasionally), which can sometimes get a bit heated, I think we all need to take a step back and chill out a bit. We are all united by a love of aeroplanes and flight simming and although opinions differ; that's what makes things interesting. My wait for activation doesn't stop me from flying the Wilco 737, or the PMDG one, so as long as it gets sorted eventually, it's no big deal.Al

Al, I couldn't agree with you more. I love this hobby. In fact I am addicted to it. Sure I am adamant about protecting Ariane from false statements. When I see, what I know to be a lie about Ariane that person needs to prepare to substantiate their claim. But I am also adamant about protecting PMDG, Captain Sim and all of the other great simulation developers from lies, smut and false gossip.These developers are the suppliers of one of my greatest enjoyments. It takes each one of them years of work, sleepless nights, stress and a huge investment to produce an airline simulation that will reproduce the complexity of a commercial airliner so I can fly it on my home computer.After they release the product, they have to put up with angry frustrated customers with short fuses who can't get the software to run on their particular computer. Look at Level D and their dreaded "panel initiation error" in FSX. That one thread is over 12 pages long and filled with angry customers wanting their money back. Yet, Level D has done their best to support the problem. I know it has stressed them out.With Aces studio now going defunct, do you think that there are going to be many qualified people willing to produce future complex airline simulations for FS9 and FSX? I really doubt it!!Really dedicated sim enthusiast (not of the luke-warm variety who couldn't care anyway) have to start using the gray matter that was put between our ears and quit trying to blackball premium, high quality, sim developers. All that is doing is cutting off our own noses! Ariane doesn't have the perfect sim any more than anyone else has it, but they are constantly pouring money into it, trying to produce something even better and something that their customers will enjoy more.Right now they are working hard on a new nav data manager that will work with a new and even more complete FMC. They are very excited about it and anticipate that it will be a powerful tool for customizing and updating nav data on all of the Ariane Boeing for both FS9 (yes, they still are working to improve the FS9 models also) and FSX. Eventually it will allow simmers to download and exchange customized nav data.I'm sure Ariane would welcome an unbiased and objective review of their X2 products. I certainly hope that you will appreciate the serous responsibility that goes with making one. This document will be one that will not only reflect Ariane's products, but will also reflect your integrity for years to come.Thank you,Bob

The same ones who complain the most about activation processes put in place by developers, more than likely, would be the first ones to download illegal copies if the opportunity came their way.

I've tried to stay out of this, but personally, I find that quite offensive.

This incident was December of 2007. Maybe it was for FS9 (but I really thought FSX), but that's not the point- nothing that a customer could possibly screw up, other than the obvious illegal stuff like copying or pirating software, should attract the kind of response that I received from Ariane. I just can't wait until there is some real competition from PMDG, it will be very interesting to see what happens then. Right now the FSX crowd are salivating for a good B73NG.Bruce.

That was definately an FS9 product. I will contact Ariane and see why you received, what you feel is a rude response.Personally, I have never experienced anyone that received rude treatment from Ariane unless they had said something to them that antagonize it.Your wrong about what a customer could "screw up" to receive a bad response. Try getting on PMDG and being perceived as rude. They will tell you quickly. Look at Blue Print Simulations standard support letter. It starts out saying if you sent anything that may be considered rude, you will not even receive a response at all.I also look forward to PMDG's B737NG, but I think it will be a very long time before you see that released. By then Ariane will have made many advancements to their FSX product too. Guess who benefits? We do!Right now you have a beautiful Maddog MD82 from Leonardo. You also have a great one from Flight1. I have them both and love to fly both of them. I really don't see the release of one hurting the sales of the other.You have Airsimmer releasing an extremely complex A320. Sometime later you have another complex A320 coming from "Things-To-Come" and a new complex A380 coming from "Next Level Simulations".I believe they will all sell very well.We, as true sim enthusiasts, need to support all of the developers who step out to create these beautiful airliners. When we address concerns to them, it needs to be in a polite and respectful way. The same way that you would treat the person behind the customer service counter at your local electronics store.

I've tried to stay out of this, but personally, I find that quite offensive.

Yes you're right...this is at least clumsy.

We, as true sim enthusiasts, need to support all of the developers who step out to create these beautiful airliners. When we address concerns to them, it needs to be in a polite and respectful way. The same way that you would treat the person behind the customer service counter at your local electronics store.

You have A LOT of nerve... :(

... deleted for brevity ...But, sadly, people are gullible and want to believe that there is goodness in the world. And companies, like Ariane, will exploit that - all in the name of greed!- Alex

Alex,A very thoughtful abstract and synopsis of the matter. Well done and thank you.

Bob,It's well and great that you love Ariane so much and it really is truly cool to see this level of excitement for a product. However, you are entirely too dismissive of wide swaths of simmers (the so-called luke-warm types) in your rebukes. The Ariane history is self-evident and their behavior and practices (in the long-view) can hardly be justified. Of course, folks are welcome to throw money at whatever they wish to, but many are also justified and welcome in recounting, over and over for many, many years now, a very consistent message of regret and woe in their dealings with Ariane. Simply stated, you can't wish history away and, from what I can tell, Ariane continues to recreate that history year after year.While someone else stated it more crudely, I think it is fair speculation to assume that you are pretty well connected to Ariane in some way, shape or form. In this sense, I'm not sure your judgmental approach ("we true simmers...","all you luke-warm simmers...","they would probably pirate it anyway...") is making a good case for Ariane. Since you do seem connected to them, why don't you use your influence to invite/entice one of their developers or staff into this discussion. This person (or persons) could address the consternation and accusations made against them. If a substantial and collective history of experiences are entirely off the mark, I am prepared to hear it "from the horse's mouth," as it were.Of course, a free market will provide opportunities for many business models, approaches and styles. Thus, Ariane is free to pursue their vision and simmers are free to support that vision with their money. This forum can also be thought of as a somewhat-free (it is Avsim's house we're playing in) market of ideas. The idea with considerable currency is that Ariane is difficult to deal with, over-priced and generally unfriendly in their business model.

I'm sorry if that puts you shorts in a wad, rightseater, but from the post that he put first announcing his "review", it was obvious to the blind that Al didn't have any intention of doing an unbiased review.

I think anyone who has ever read one of my reviews will be aware that I always strive very hard to produce in depth, fair and accurate appraisals, and have absolutely every intention of doing so with this one. I really don't care to base it on either the good or bad things people have said, or any rumours which perpetuate, I intend to focus on the truth alone, and anyone who knows me or any reviews I've written will know that is the way I roll. I even posted a comment about doing so in a different thread a few weeks ago. See the review feedback forum if you don't believe me, where you will note a thread in which I mentioned mooting doing exactly that with the Avsim Reviews Editor regarding the Ariane 737 several weeks ago in an email conversation, which was long before this thread even commenced. And I can assure you that Avsim Reviews Editor Robert Whitwell was heartily in agreement that the Ariane 737 should get a fair review, because I actually asked whether Avsim had a problem with Ariane which would prevent it from happening, and was myself assured that was not the case at all.You might also note that I mentioned in passing the Ariane 737 as an alternative with which you can fly the missions in the review of Aviation and Mission for the Wilco PIC 737 which was posted on the main Avsim page this week, so your assertion that I'm somehow intending to assassinate the product was frankly, as wide of the mark as it was insulting to both mine and Avsim's integrity. I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to work out that if I wanted to slam Ariane's product or be somehow unfair, that I would feel compelled to pay over a hundred dollars for the privelege. I hope it is a good product and I'm merely trying to get to the bottom of why there is negative feedback and whether it is justified. If it is, I will say so, but similarly, if it is not and the product is indeed worth having, then I can assure you that I will say so and happily champion it.As with most aircraft reviews I've ever done for Avsim, I've just spent a large amount of money on a technical manual for the aircraft simulated in the Ariane product, so that I can be as accurate as possible in my appraisal. I write reviews for many reasons, but to be biased or innaccurate is never one of them, because apart from it not being my style, I have too much respect for Avsim's integrity to do otherwise.Al

Bob,It's well and great that you love Ariane so much and it really is truly cool to see this level of excitement for a product. However, you are entirely too dismissive of wide swaths of simmers (the so-called luke-warm types) in your rebukes. The Ariane history is self-evident and their behavior and practices (in the long-view) can hardly be justified. Of course, folks are welcome to throw money at whatever they wish to, but many are also justified and welcome in recounting, over and over for many, many years now, a very consistent message of regret and woe in their dealings with Ariane. Simply stated, you can't wish history away and, from what I can tell, Ariane continues to recreate that history year after year.

The "history" that you are talking about is the one that created and promoted right here. I make my judgments on a company by personal experience not on hearsay and gossip. I find most of the negative comments are made by those who have never even tried the software. It's just "he said-she said". My personal experiences with Ariane's sims have been very positive and enjoyable.Do you want me to not like them because you don't? That would be pretty empty headed on my part.I listen to what others say, then make my own judgment.

While someone else stated it more crudely, I think it is fair speculation to assume that you are pretty well connected to Ariane in some way, shape or form. In this sense, I'm not sure your judgmental approach ("we true simmers...","all you luke-warm simmers...","they would probably pirate it anyway...") is making a good case for Ariane. Since you do seem connected to them, why don't you use your influence to invite/entice one of their developers or staff into this discussion. This person (or persons) could address the consternation and accusations made against them. If a substantial and collective history of experiences are entirely off the mark, I am prepared to hear it "from the horse's mouth," as it were.

Well, you know what they say about the word "assume". I'm afraid that holds quite true here. My "connection" with Ariane is no more than my connection with PMDG, LevelD or Captain Sim. I own all of their products and enjoy them very much. Your "fair" speculation is way off base.But, like many others here, you feel that if someone comes on these forums and disagrees with the "mob" about Ariane, they must be working for them. You feel saying that will legitimate your argument and make you look like, although you run them down, your opinion is more valid than mine because you are not affiliated with them and anyone not affiliated with them will run them down. If anyone supports them and likes their software, then they are affiliated with them, thus they have no ground to argue in their favor. But that is a very poor course for any argument.

Of course, a free market will provide opportunities for many business models, approaches and styles. Thus, Ariane is free to pursue their vision and simmers are free to support that vision with their money. This forum can also be thought of as a somewhat-free (it is Avsim's house we're playing in) market of ideas. The idea with considerable currency is that Ariane is difficult to deal with, over-priced and generally unfriendly in their business model.

I'm glad that you recognize that it is a market and This "free market" is being favorable to Ariane Designs considering the condition of the economy. They are doing quite well.As far as this forum is concerned, it would be very boring if everyone came with the same opinion. So I'm sure that you welcome my perspective.The "luke-warm" simmers that I refer to are the ones that constantly complain about the price of products like PMDG, Airsimmer, Majestic Dash8 Pro, Leonardo's Maddog MD80 and of course Ariane. I'm not insulting these people, I'm just saying that they don't have a passion for this hobby. They are all fine people, they just have their passions elsewhere.If you love this hobby, you will not bulk at the price of simulations that bring aircraft accuracy to your home PC no more than an avid golfer will bulk at the price of a "Big Bertha". Building a commercial aircraft like the Boeing 737, 767, 747 or Airbus A320 is a dynamo undertaking that requires a huge amount of dedication and resources.We wait for over two years for the completion of a simulation, then hear "Oh gosh, I'm not paying that much, I can download so and so's freebie and have the same thing". Does that sound like a passion for realism?

I've tried to stay out of this, but personally, I find that quite offensive.

I agree that what he said was offensive. Copy protection only hurts legitimate customers. Pirates will always find ways around it. ALWAYS.

I think anyone who has ever read one of my reviews will be aware that I always strive very hard to produce in depth, fair and accurate appraisals, and have absolutely every intention of doing so with this one. I really don't care to base it on either the good or bad things people have said, or any rumours which perpetuate, I intend to focus on the truth alone, and anyone who knows me or any reviews I've written will know that is the way I roll. I even posted a comment about doing so in a different thread a few weeks ago. See the review feedback forum if you don't believe me, where you will note a thread in which I mentioned mooting doing exactly that with the Avsim reviews editor regarding the Ariane 737 several weeks ago in an email conversation, which was long before this thread even commenced. And I can assure you that Avsim Reviews Editor Robert Whitwell was heartily in agreement that the Ariane 737 should get a fair review, because I actually asked whether Avsim had a problem with Ariane which would prevent it from happening, and was assured that was not the case at all.You might also note that I mentioned in passing the Ariane 737 as an alternative with which you can fly the missions in the review of Aviation and Mission for the Wilco PIC 737 which was posted on the main Avsim page this week, so your assertion that I'm somehow intending to assassinate the product was frankly, as wide of the mark as it was insulting to both mine and Avsim's integrity. I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to work out that if I wanted to slam Ariane's product or be somehow unfair, that I would feel compelled to pay over a hundred dollars for the privelege. I hope it is a good product and I'm merely trying to get to the bottom of why there is negative feedback and whether it is justified. If it is, I will say so, but similarly, if it is not and the product is indeed worth having, then I can assure you that I will say so and happily champion it.As with most aircraft reviews I've ever done for Avsim, I've just spent a large amount of money on a technical manual for the aircraft simulated in the Ariane product, so that I can be as accurate as possible in my appraisal. I write reviews for many reasons, but to be biased or innaccurate is never one of them, because apart from it not being my style, I have too much respect for Avsim's integrity to do otherwise.Al

Allen, that being the case, I sincerely apologize. The remarks of your first post simply misled me, or I understood them wrong. One of my biggest gripes has that writers of magazines like Computer Pilot have shunned away from writing reviews about Ariane products. No doubt I was quite surprised to find the review of the Ariane X2 on Flightsim.com by Don Filer Ariane X2 ReviewI am very glad to see this growing interest in putting past rumors to rest and looking only at the quality and accuracy of the product. Not to honestly review a popular developers product is an injustice to all the flight simulation community.Bob

I agree that what he said was offensive. Copy protection only hurts legitimate customers. Pirates will always find ways around it. ALWAYS.

Sorry that you are offended, but anyone who knows the fact that piracy is jeopardizing the good health of flight simulation (My hobby! So I do take it personal) literally putting developers out of business will welcome measures that developers can put in place to protect their profits and products.If a person is angry or offended by activation processes, they either are very short sighted, have no patience or upset that they can't find their way around it.No flight sim developer that I've seen (including Ariane) wants any honest customer to have difficulty with a product activation, but all of the developers are going to what they hope is fail-safe activations.Just like any of the other developers, Ariane will gladly re-activate their product for computer updates, Windows reloads, etc. at no charge at all.I agree that Flight 1 has the best activation method. Why all of the developers don't use them, I don't know. But there must be reasons and I would have to think the reason is that it is probably quite costly for the developer.

Another quick update which relates to the problem with SimMarket activation:I've had a reply to my SimMarket ticket where I mentioned that SimMarket should look into the problem with activating their version of the Ariane 737 because of the documentation in the download which is not pertinent to the product and therefore makes it impossible to activate it, and they have just emailed me saying that they have been in touch with Ariane about rectifying this problem, so that's encouraging. It looks like this issue may well take the activation of my product past the promised 'no more than 48 hours' mentioned in the documentation unless things happen tomorrow, but I'm aware that things might backlog a bit over a holiday weekend, so that is at least some justification for a delay. Anyway, we shall see.Al

You have A LOT of nerve... :(

Do you think that it takes a lot of nerve to suggest politeness as an option? That doesn't seem like something that should qualify as being nervy.I'm as guilty as anyone when I can't get a sim that I purchased to work correctly. I get angry at the developer especially if it is a Friday and you read on their support website that you can't contact them until Monday at 8:00am GMT. On the other hand, I have found that it is usually something that I have done wrong, an update that I haven't downloaded and installed or some program that is running in the background of my computer that is interfering with the software.I think politeness with support personnel is usually in order and received much better and with better results.

Another quick update which relates to the problem with SimMarket activation:I've had a reply to my SimMarket ticket where I mentioned that SimMarket should look into the problem with activating their version of the Ariane 737 because of the documentation in the download which is not pertinent to the product and therefore makes it impossible to activate it, and they have just emailed me saying that they have been in touch with Ariane about rectifying this problem, so that's encouraging. It looks like this issue may well take the activation of my product past the promised 'no more than 48 hours' mentioned in the documentation unless things happen tomorrow, but I'm aware that things might backlog a bit over a holiday weekend, so that is at least some justification for a delay. Anyway, we shall see.Al

It's also very possible that the 48 hours might be referring to working days.

I'm sorry if that puts you shorts in a wad, rightseater, but from the post that he put first announcing his "review", it was obvious to the blind that Al didn't have any intention of doing an unbiased review.It's obvious to no one. By immediately suggesting that Alan's review would be biased you have shown that you have no understanding of the purpose of such reviews. It is his job, and obligation as an AVSIM reviewer to point out both the highlights and shortcomings. He quickly ran into an issue and pointed it out, but I did not get any impression that it was to set the tone for his upcoming review. I have followed his reviews since he joined the staff here and I've yet to see any bias on his part. I highly doubt he would have paid all of that money for a product just to bash it. I expect nothing short of the quality I have seen from all of his previous work.Obviously you haven't found where I have also defended PMDG for the price of their new MD11 or all of the times I defended Captain Sim for his beautiful 757 or C130. Or maybe Airsimmer for what they choose to charge on their upcoming release.Obviously I have, which is why I noted that you use the same technique in every forum. Your posts typically note that you have products X,Y and Z from a host of developers and that you think they are great, than you move on to defend Ariane. The problem is that I do not see you speaking up for complaints about other companies with the same enthusiasm as you do with Ariane. Unlike what I have seen from many others in several posts, I am not claiming that you are in any way affiliated with Ariane, but I am curious why you have chosen that particular company to defend in such a vigorous fashion.How Ariane feels they need to protect their software from stinking pirates, in my opinion, is completely their business and their right.Finally something we agree on. It most certainly is Ariane's right to protect there products in any legal manner they wish. Personally, I am angry at the pirates for causing me to have to deal with these protections, not the software company. However, I don't believe for a second that it is keeping the pirates at bay. I believe that many Ariane products, as well as most others, have been cracked and freely distributed. In fact, before being removed by a forum administrator, there was a post at another site where someone claimed to have gotten one of the 737s via one of the pirate sites and he even showed screenshots of the working product as well as instructions on how to work around certain issues. I can only hope that was passed on to Ariane.The same ones who complain the most about activation processes put in place by developers, more than likely, would be the first ones to download illegal copies if the opportunity came their way.Once again, it is these unfounded comments that remove any credibility from your posts. I have nothing against you personally, but I would never rely on anything you say when it is proceeded by such distasteful comments with absolutely nothing to back them up. I see no connection whatsoever to people with legitimate complaints and the discraceful pirates who keep costs high and activation a nuisance.It will be great if Ariane can establish a good relationship with the FS community, but from my past experiences with them I have chosen to wait on purchasing any further products from them until the general tone in these forums changes from one of disapproval and mixed feelings to the same aura surrounding the folks at PMDG, LDS, F1 and the like.Oops, sorry about that messed up quoting....not sure what happened there.