I've been involved with flight sim since the early days of Sublogic ATP and Microsoft's early versions and my most recent sim of choice was FSX. It was a heavily modded setup: 2 computers, 3 monitors with Aivlasoft EFB, Active Sky Next and some other programs. My FSX was also heavily modified with my own AI traffic flight plans, my own custom approaches (done with ADE) and custom databases to go with those approaches. Enough history. Made the recent jump to MSFS24 and I just purchased my first PMDG product. In the early days of PMDG being marketed as "study level" I thought there might be to much study involved. I like some depth but also like to get in and just fly. I don't want a 3 week course in the aircraft. I choose the 777-200LR and it's one fine machine. PMDG did a good job to my eye and brain. It's a polished aircraft. I know there has been some recent drama about PMDG but fifty bucks for THIS plane was fine with myself. I will get thousand's of hours of enjoyment for that fifty dollars. Of course ANY developer is not without some shortcomings but so far I'm pleased with my purchase. It looks good, sounds good and fly's good. My opinion .. go get one. 

19 minutes ago, bill10 said:

I've been involved with flight sim since the early days of Sublogic ATP and Microsoft's early versions and my most recent sim of choice was FSX. It was a heavily modded setup: 2 computers, 3 monitors with Aivlasoft EFB, Active Sky Next and some other programs. My FSX was also heavily modified with my own AI traffic flight plans, my own custom approaches (done with ADE) and custom databases to go with those approaches. Enough history. Made the recent jump to MSFS24 and I just purchased my first PMDG product. In the early days of PMDG being marketed as "study level" I thought there might be to much study involved. I like some depth but also like to get in and just fly. I don't want a 3 week course in the aircraft. I choose the 777-200LR and it's one fine machine. PMDG did a good job to my eye and brain. It's a polished aircraft. I know there has been some recent drama about PMDG but fifty bucks for THIS plane was fine with myself. I will get thousand's of hours of enjoyment for that fifty dollars. Of course ANY developer is not without some shortcomings but so far I'm pleased with my purchase. It looks good, sounds good and fly's good. My opinion .. go get one. 

Yes, they make a decent product, no one denies that. The issues are simpler - the core product has old bugs that haven't been fixed in 10 years+, and despite their many claims ("built from the ground up"), it's become clear to most people that they basically reuse old (and buggy - old is not the issue) code, and then make stuff up all the time.

They have not improved core logic, haven't added any QoL features, their EFB is woeful (despite them promising us something amazing, wonderful, groundbreaking etc).. lots of things like this (GFO, anyone?).

And of course the recent problems were related to their CEO basically lying, and then their marketing guy trying to gaslight us all. So yes, the product is decent, but only decent. And there are much better developers who don't keep trying to gouge customers, and who's public statements can be relied on. That's all. 

Edited January 5Jan 5 by JonathanC

Hello Jonathan, 

Do you have examples of these "old bugs that haven't been fixed in 10 years+" ? I'm not challenging your assertions just trying to get a read on your statement. Especially since I'm new to PMDG aircraft.

I've had about 15 flights so far and I haven't noticed anything that might be a bug. Now I will say I'm not going to notice something like hey the N1 values aren't correct on startup. I would notice something not working, per the manual, or some glitch in the flight model IE a small twitch of the aircraft turns in LNAV.  I really haven't noticed anything that is wrong given my expectations. 

Even thou I haven't bought the new 737 it did give me a pause when I heard the "few cups of coffee" statement, then saw the price. But I would stop short of saying their CEO was lying. That's a strong claim. 

Just simply for myself, I am happy with my purchase and like and enjoy the aircraft. Others probably will also, but yes some of your critique's are noteworthy for others. 

Respectfully.

You have to be aware that there are quite a few members here at Avsim that have their own agendas regarding PMDG.

As a result, a post here regarding PMDG becomes a lightening rod and usually results in said members pushing their anti-PMDG agendas at the expense of a civilised conversation, as much as they would claim otherwise.

My suggestion would be to make up your own mind and take much of what you will read with a grain of salt.

1 hour ago, bill10 said:

In the early days of PMDG being marketed as "study level"

Don't buy all the hype with the "Study Level" buzz word!

Many of the real systems are not replicated. Yes, it is quite realistic.

MSFS is a Game! You want real you will need a Level D simulator.

Others on Avsim do not like hearing this bit Microsoft is a video game publisher that creates games that simulate things in real life.

I enjoy the complexity of the game while using PMDG products but hardly see this as "study level' for whatever that means. It's a bad description for a video game/simulator product.

 

 

16 minutes ago, bill10 said:

Hello Jonathan, 

Do you have examples of these "old bugs that haven't been fixed in 10 years+" ? I'm not challenging your assertions just trying to get a read on your statement. Especially since I'm new to PMDG aircraft.

I've had about 15 flights so far and I haven't noticed anything that might be a bug. Now I will say I'm not going to notice something like hey the N1 values aren't correct on startup. I would notice something not working, per the manual, or some glitch in the flight model IE a small twitch of the aircraft turns in LNAV.  I really haven't noticed anything that is wrong given my expectations. 

Even thou I haven't bought the new 737 it did give me a pause when I heard the "few cups of coffee" statement, then saw the price. But I would stop short of saying their CEO was lying. That's a strong claim. 

Just simply for myself, I am happy with my purchase and like and enjoy the aircraft. Others probably will also, but yes some of your critique's are noteworthy for others. 

Respectfully.

There are various real world pilots that have posted this multiple times. I'm not a real world pilot so will defer to them. You can search.

I also like and enjoy the aircraft, and will recommend it if you want a 737. But I don't think it's perfect and I do think they need to improve. 

Lying, not lying, you decide. I dont' really care, was just giving you context. This is not a court of law, this is just people's opinions. 

12 minutes ago, DavidP said:

You have to be aware that there are quite a few members here at Avsim that have their own agendas regarding PMDG.

As a result, a post here regarding PMDG becomes a lightening rod and usually results in said members pushing their anti-PMDG agendas at the expense of a civilised conversation, as much as they would claim otherwise.

My suggestion would be to make up your own mind and take much of what you will read with a grain of salt.

Agree with all of this with one modification. There are equal numbers of people pushing a pro-PMDG agenda as well. So it goes both ways.

 

I suggest you enjoy the plane, ignore the drama, and push for the developer to improve - or do nothing and let the market decide (as it is doing..)

What would this hobby be like if PMDG never existed? We would be a lot worse off imo. 

2 hours ago, JonathanC said:

There are various real world pilots that have posted this multiple times. I'm not a real world pilot so will defer to them. You can search.

I also like and enjoy the aircraft, and will recommend it if you want a 737. But I don't think it's perfect and I do think they need to improve. 

Lying, not lying, you decide. I dont' really care, was just giving you context. This is not a court of law, this is just people's opinions. 

My legal background was creeping in, but I see your point.  Your context is duly noted and fair enough.

 

 

 

Yea really a lot of the bugs that are brought up frequently are things that only real pilots can point out as not quite being accurate, such as how it hand flies or a bit of a wobble or an overcorrection in a turn. Without their feedback, we would likely not notice as you have, or just assumed it's accurate. Some would label that as nitpicky. I tend to acknowledge those and hope PMDG learns to take that criticism and improve upon it if needed. It could be that their close net of RW pilots don't see it as an issue, so they don't think it is. I don't know. That being said, I also try to view the plane more holistically as a high quality 737 addon, and not get too riled up such that I endlessly harp on negatives about the plane and disparage the developers. As everyone else says, if you enjoy it, that's all that matters. No plane is going to match up with the real one 100%.

3 hours ago, bill10 said:

But I would stop short of saying their CEO was lying. That's a strong claim. 

Well... it appears that there's a significant number of people feeling scammed or lied to by PMDG/Randazzo and such a feeling about something or someone never comes out of the blue.
PMDG pulls off stunts like deliberately or inadvertently making everyone expect a price tag of something around 5-10 USD when it's supposed to be 30 USD in the end.
Or a long time ago (I don't recall if it was from FSX to P3D or from one P3D version to the next one), when PMDG said their 777 for the newer sim will come at the exact same price as the 777 for the older sim.
Then they've outdanked everyone by increasing the price for the older sim by 10 USD and then selling the 777 for the newer sim for "the same price" as it is for the older one 😅😅😅
So yeah, RSR didn't lie about it being the same price, but tell me - does that shed a good light on him and his firm?

And why isn't a single simmer bitching about Justflight or Fenix?
Do they treat customers differently, maybe?

OK, we're not gonna go down this rabbit hole again.