5 hours ago, jfri said:

Question is how much right rudder should we need to apply in order to get it realistic ? In X Plane very much is needed almost full rudder input.

IMO Xp12 does it much more  realistically, less the new problem with propwash effects affecting specially twins or other multiprops with wings behind their props...

17 hours ago, jfri said:

I have now tested with some planes with zero crosswind. It seem payware single prop planes at least get the left turning tendency direction correct (JF Piper PA28 Anthony AN-2 Sting ) the default C172 went almost straight with a very small left tendency. So it seem crosswing first played a role

Question is how much right rudder should we need to apply in order to get it realistic ? In X Plane very much is needed almost full rudder input.

I tried the P51D mod that I became aware of recently, and really enjoy to play with. There's indeed a "bit" of left turning tendencies, but I believe it's very tame, at least compared to, for instance, the reference for me in desktop flight simulation which is still DCS World, and it's P51D or TF51...

I haven't reinstalled the A2A Comanche for FS 2024, but I will do that and test and report here.

Puzzling is that MS / ASOBO's own creations, which I expected to shine in terms of showing their CFD modeling, are the worst :-//

In my opinion the only MSFS single engine piston that gets it right is the A2A Comanche.

For everything else (default Cessna, JF PA28 and Carenado PA28) they've overdone the weathervane effect and underdone the torque effect.

I've never flown a SEP in real life that doesn't need right rudder on take-off, even in a strong crosswind from the other direction. You might need slightly more or slightly less depending on the wind, but it'll never go in a straight line without and you will certainly never need left rudder.

Edited May 11May 11 by Tom Wright

13 minutes ago, Tom Wright said:

In my opinion the only MSFS single engine piston that gets it right is the A2A Comanche.

For everything else (default Cessna, JF PA28 and Carenado PA28) they've overdone the weathervane effect and underdone the torque effect.

I've never flown a SEP in real life that doesn't need right rudder on take-off, even in a strong crosswind from the other direction. You might need slightly more or slightly less depending on the wind, but it'll never go in a straight line without and you will certainly never need left rudder.

Thank you Tom, I really have to give the A2A a try ...

Regarding the effect, it's even counter intuitive because some aircraft, in zero wind conditions and having CCW rotating props start veering to the right !!!

Inflight at least the Kingair 350 considerably banks right - reminds me of that new problem X-plane 12 has with propwash physics :-// causing most prop aircraft, specially those where the propwash hits a good area of the wings(s) behave against the logic of prop effects and very noticeably banking right ...

The CFD-enabled props like the default C172 leave a LOT to be desired in this particular aspect. They were never great, but at least until SU4 they did show a much more consistent behaviour. Now it's completely broken 😕

Edited May 11May 11 by jcomm

15 minutes ago, jcomm said:

Regarding the effect, it's even counter intuitive because some aircraft, in zero wind conditions and having CCW rotating props start veering to the right !!!

Tbf I only really have experience in PA28 and a Cirrus SR20. Both have clockwise props and require right rudder at full power - the latter requires a TON of right rudder.

I think there's only a handful of aircraft out there that have anti-clockwise turning props, and most of these are historic aircraft (a quick Google revealed the Tiger Moth and Chipmunk do). I do have about half an hour in a Chipmunk years ago, but didn't do the take off and was probably too inexperienced to notice whether the reverse was the case with the rudder!

13 hours ago, jcomm said:

I tried the P51D mod that I became aware of recently, and really enjoy to play with. There's indeed a "bit" of left turning tendencies, but I believe it's very tame, at least compared to, for instance, the reference for me in desktop flight simulation which is still DCS World, and it's P51D or TF51...

I haven't reinstalled the A2A Comanche for FS 2024, but I will do that and test and report here.

Puzzling is that MS / ASOBO's own creations, which I expected to shine in terms of showing their CFD modeling, are the worst :-//

I also tried the P51 in MSFS2024 and my settings does not make sense for it. When I move the propeller assigned lever (TM Hotas Warthog) the throttle also move. One lever on my CH throttle quadrant also controls the propeller. But that axis is not assigned to anything according to search by input

On 5/10/2026 at 9:51 AM, jcomm said:

But since this two old parameters aren't used anymore, this means that MSFS isn't actually able to model a rather basic stuff, at least in the most aerodynamics correct way - trim tabs that are set on ground like in many GA and WW2 aircraft IRL...

In X-Plane it has been possible since AGES! Same in DCS, and in IL-2, and in my presently preferred action sim - Aces of Thunder, which even has a way to help the user adjust those fixed trim tabs by doing test flights, where they can be adjusted even if the aircraft doesn't have pilot adjustable trim on a given axis, and saved for the non-test / combat missions.

I'd say, this is a major limitation in MSFS's FM, specially now they've gone CFD mostly, and none of teh alternative ways to overcome it are satisfactory from an aerodynamics pov !!!

(this is the moment that in the past would make me uninstall a sim in a blink of the eyes 🤣, but I use MSFS mostly for the airliners, and overall I find it so amazing scenery wise that I can't erase it from my disks...)

You obviously have never flown any of the Flying Iron warbirds. All of them exhibit all the flying characteristics that are typical for high powered piston engine taildraggers, including ground-adjustable trim tabs.

All the physics stuff is there in 2020/2024 - but toned down significantly in most aircraft to make them more accessible for the average player. 
Not so in the Flying Iron birds. RAF Battle of Britain Memorial Flight use the Spitfire Mk IX and FS2024 VR in a real cockpit as a flight simulator for their pilots.

You want to experience all the fun stuff in one place, engine torque and p-factor dependent on propellor pitch, gyroscopic effects due to pitching, rudder stall due to crosswind, blanking of rudder due to a stalled wing, et cetera? If you still want to have fun, get their Spitfire or the FW-190. You prefer hardcore? Get the 109, and report back. 🙂


 

Edited May 12May 12 by Ojisan_alpha

5 hours ago, Ojisan_alpha said:

You obviously have never flown any of the Flying Iron warbirds. All of them exhibit all the flying characteristics that are typical for high powered piston engine taildraggers, including ground-adjustable trim tabs.

All the physics stuff is there in 2020/2024 - but toned down significantly in most aircraft to make them more accessible for the average player. 
Not so in the Flying Iron birds. RAF Battle of Britain Memorial Flight use the Spitfire Mk IX and FS2024 VR in a real cockpit as a flight simulator for their pilots.

You want to experience all the fun stuff in one place, engine torque and p-factor dependent on propellor pitch, gyroscopic effects due to pitching, rudder stall due to crosswind, blanking of rudder due to a stalled wing, et cetera? If you still want to have fun, get their Spitfire or the FW-190. You prefer hardcore? Get the 109, and report back. 🙂


 

@Ojisan_alpha, yes, I have their Spitfire since release day 🙂

And yes I play with the ground adjustable aileron trim tab 🙂 but I didn't try it because since my last MSFS clean install I didn't get it into the Community folder.

Will try it one of these days and see how it goes !

7 hours ago, jfri said:

I also tried the P51 in MSFS2024 and my settings does not make sense for it. When I move the propeller assigned lever (TM Hotas Warthog) the throttle also move. One lever on my CH throttle quadrant also controls the propeller. But that axis is not assigned to anything according to search by input

Try the flightsim.to mod, which has the prop axis, as well as the mixture, properly set :

Asobo Reno P-51D Improvement Mod - Aircraft Enhancements for MSFS | Flightsim.to

Edited May 12May 12 by jcomm

8 hours ago, jcomm said:

Try the flightsim.to mod, which has the prop axis, as well as the mixture, properly set :

Asobo Reno P-51D Improvement Mod - Aircraft Enhancements for MSFS | Flightsim.to

But how do you use it ? I placed the extracted folder in the community folder but that didn't work

Most of the time when a flightsim.to mod does nothing in MSFS, it's because the zip unpacked with one folder level too many. I would check that first. In the Community folder you should end up with the actual mod folder directly, not Community\some-folder\another-folder\the-mod. If you open the final folder you should see the manifest/layout files there straight away. Also make sure the mod matches the aircraft variant it was built for, and restart the sim after copying it in. If you want, post the exact folder path you ended up with and it'll be easier to spot what's off.

46 minutes ago, malichek said:

Most of the time when a flightsim.to mod does nothing in MSFS, it's because the zip unpacked with one folder level too many. I would check that first. In the Community folder you should end up with the actual mod folder directly, not Community\some-folder\another-folder\the-mod. If you open the final folder you should see the manifest/layout files there straight away. Also make sure the mod matches the aircraft variant it was built for, and restart the sim after copying it in. If you want, post the exact folder path you ended up with and it'll be easier to spot what's off.

I do have the mod folder directly under community and I see manifest/layout straight away when opening the modfolder in the community folder

40 minutes ago, jfri said:

I do have the mod folder directly under community and I see manifest/layout straight away when opening the modfolder in the community folder

The file I downloaded and placed in Packages\Community was extracted from the file named:

zzz-msfs24-p51-improvement-mod_V1.5.1_NkULK.zip

the larger one (134,020 KB)

 

On 5/10/2026 at 11:58 PM, jcomm said:

I haven't reinstalled the A2A Comanche for FS 2024, but I will do that and test and report here.

Both A2A addons need almost zero rudder - can't be correct, IMHO (but I don't IRL own a Comanche or an Aerostar like A2A do, so...🤷‍♂️)

Just Flight's Piper Arrows are the opposite extreme - WAY too much rudder needed.

The SWS Kodiak seems somewhat overdone, as well, but again, I've never flown one IRL, so...

in sum, tho, I'd MUCH rather have the rudder effect overdone than under, by far.

 

Edited May 12May 12 by UrgentSiesta

47 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Both A2A addons need almost zero rudder - can't be correct, IMHO (but I don't IRL own a Comanche or an Aerostar like A2A do, so...🤷‍♂️)

Just Flight's Piper Arrows are the opposite extreme - WAY too much rudder needed.

The SWS Kodiak seems somewhat overdone, as well, but again, I've never flown one IRL, so...

in sum, tho, I'd MUCH rather have the rudder effect overdone than under, by far.

 

The problem is IRL rudder pedals are rigged to have a resistance . Even when you press a little the "feedback" on your muscles can vary from person to person and therefore can be very subjective.

I have honeycomb Charlie rudders adjusted to highest resistance, so I can get a feeling that remind me of real aircraft. If rudders has minimum or no resistance a feed back is based on amount of deflection which could be very deceptive . I don't know if there folks that actually measure physical rudder deflection between say Cherokee 180 and Piper Lance. It definitely feels different IRL but who knows how much more right rudder required in Piper Lance 1 inch 1 and half inch more? I cant tell, it is all by feel. 

I personally don't have problem with A2A rudder amount, considering that Scott actually owns and flies what he makes for MSFS. As I mentioned before  it is very subjective matter. When you fly something often and long enough you don't register physical feed back much it also delete to a muscle memory . I had students who complained to me between same line of airplanes that one controls felt stiffer than another. While I know it's true for them it absolutely not true for me. For me they all fly the same.