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onurksn

AI Separation, how good?

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Hello fellow simmers,I've just downloaded AI Seperation from the library. I'm running about 50 WOAI packages at 100%. I need this kind of software especially for the final approach phase of my flights where all AI pile up.Those who are using it, any thoughts?

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Thanks Jim,Yeah, it's the slew thing that put me off...I suppose I'll take a look at AI Smooth.

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AI smooth is the way to go. It's not 100% fool proof but I would say 99%.Also, make sure you use Ken Salter's taxi speed fix (FS9 config programme). Between the two it really reduces the AI bunch up's.

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>AI smooth is the way to go. It's not 100% fool proof but I>would say 99%.>>Also, make sure you use Ken Salter's taxi speed fix (FS9>config programme). >>Between the two it really reduces the AI bunch up's.Will do Al, thanks for the advice.

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>Also, make sure you use Ken Salter's taxi speed fix (FS9>config programme). Can you set that up to speed up runway exit WITHOUT affecting normal taxi speed on the taxiways? I'd like to get my AI to clear the runway faster, but not at the expense of having my AI aircraft racing around the taxiways like NASCAR race cars.....

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Land Taxi speed to 37kts works well.You can configure what ever speed you want for the taxiway and runway.

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How does one speed up taxi speed for AI? I've never heard of this, wouldlike to give it a try.Thanks

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Hi,The two things you can do is change the universal taxi speed (I keep this around 19 kts) and change the speed at which "landing" becomes "taxi". This can be in the high thirties, as the previous poster mentions. This will help them turn off the runway sooner, although it doesn't speed them up while on the runway.Hope this helps,--Tom GibsonCal Classic Propliner Page: http://www.calclassic.comFreeflight Design Shop: http://www.freeflightdesign.comDrop by! ___x_x_(")_x_x___

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Clearly more people prefer AISmooth, but I prefer AI separation.AISeparate+ Aircraft stay in arrival order+ Parameters allow for tweaking arrival separation- Aircraft slewed more than 40 miles from airport may be lost by ATC+ Priority arrival for user aircraftAISmooth- No arrival priority. Some aircraft hold past departure time creating problems when they land+ Multiple holds for the same aircraft, handles more aircraft than AISeparate+ Parameters allow for tweaking arrival separation and hold release+ Priority arrival for user aircraftAt first I hated the slewing, but after trying AISmooth and having aircraft get locked into a hold for way longer than they should, I decided the slewing wasn't so bad. If AISmooth would incorporate an arrival priority and manage the holds with first in, first out, I'd switch and use it all the time.Bruce

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Hi,sorry but man things you all talking about are not true! I spent lot's of time to find out the better programm.It is not true when saying AI Seperate will give your aircraft landing priority. The Problem with AI Seperat is that the entire AI Traffic will be handeled by AI Seperate but not your own!! AI Seperate does NOT recognize users aircraft but AI Smooth does.AI Smooth is in my eyes the big looser although AI Smooth recognizes users aircraft. The huge problem of AI Smooth is that planes will be send into Holdings when a Traffic alert occurs and 80% of the planes at big airports will be in holdings for hrs. The airspace is full of aircrafts in holdings and so airports get more and more empty. Ai Seperate does not sent aircrafts into holdings, it makes planes fater / slower to realize a clean approach line with sufficent room between each landing aircraft.Although AI Seperate does not recognize users aircraft it is the better one and I now what I am talking about becuase I spent a huge amount of time to find out which one is the best.

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Wow!!The AI issue certainly does get a lot of attention, it seems it's a very important part of our simming experience.Thank you very much for your opinions.

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>>Yeah, it's the slew thing that put me off...>I suppose I'll take a look at AI Smooth.>Both Seperation Utilities place the AI Plane in slew mode. AI Seperation back slews final approach, AI Smooth slews what appears to be a circuit holding pattern.There is no way in FS9 or FSX to tell a AI Plane to fly a holding pattern so what you see with AI Smooth is a slew mode when in a holding circuit. Both Utilities destroy the seperation code that FS2004 uses as the default. Yes, FS does have a built in seperation AI Traffic code but many Users have never studied AI behavior to see it working.There are pro's and con's on which slew mode works best in conjunction with the ATC Engine. Regardless of the slew mode used each AI plane that is sent a slew command looses the interface code between ATC and the arrival AI Plane when released from slew.Without getting too technical that means each AI Plane when it comes out of slew has to fallback on a hardcode .dll for the approach to a runway. The fallback releases the AI plane from using the coded default XML ILS approach which has hardfloor altitudes and FAF locations to help a AI Plane establish the correct glidepath.If a AI Plane goes missed approach it can no longer establish itself back in control of ATC /AI Engine and also cannot use the coded XML missed approach altitude or vectors to final outside the FAF. This is clearly seen with every single curved approach that FS2004 has in the approach database and any approach curve I write such as the IGS 13 into Kai Tak.AI Seperation uses a backslew which in many cases backs the AI plane right out of the Visual AI Zone Sector and the AI Plane disaapears and then pops up at the Gate.AI Smooth will release the slew circuit mode and the plane fall out of the sky and never land or cannot find the final approach so they also pop up at the gate.Like many have already said, each has pro's and con's but each also affect FS2004 the same way in the end. The end result is you have less AI planes flying the approach and more AI Planes poping up at the Gate or moving on to their next FP destination. That alone makes it appear that some magic has been performed to make it look like planes have been seperated when the fact is planes have been taking out of the approach cycle (meaning deleted). You can do the same thing that AI Smooth and AI Seperation does with a manual command (delete offending AI planes) with the use of the Traffic Tool Box utilty that ships with the SDK. That is what AI seperation and AI Smooth are working with.

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I am wondering where yout take this from?I studied AI Smooth and AI Seperation for many many hrs during my free time at major airports such as Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam, Vienna and Madrid.This happened:AI SMOOTH:Almost every 3rd plane on arrival was forced by ATC to make a go around. At frankfurt over 30 planes made go around without 60 minutes and the majority of them came never back to approach. Furthermore many aircrafts on approach touched down far away from the runway and drove on ground to the touch down zone of the runway they wanted to approach.AI SEPERATION: 41 out of 50 planes landed as they should.The remaining 11 aircraft made either a go around (6 aircrafts) and came back to approach the runway again. 3 out of 50 aircrafts dissapeared into nowhere.Of course each programm got bad thinks and good things but AI Sep. is by far the most reliable programm.

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All I can add is that if Jim were to tell me the Moon was made of Green Cheese, I would believe him.

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Thanks for passing along your research, which caused me to give AI Separation another try. I flew into an busy traffic area on approach and I admit, the program did a good job sorting through the mess. Judging by just the amount of user settings, the AI SEP algorithm seems simpler than the AI SMOOTH algorithm. Also, the straightline "slewing" of the AI aircraft backwards out of the way seems positively brute force compared to AI SMOOTH. Perhaps the "keep it simple" approach works best at extremely busy airports however.It's really interesting how both of these utilities came out about the same time in 2005. Several years later, threads still pop up debating the merits of the two.

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>Thanks for passing along your research, which caused me to>give AI Separation another try. I flew into an busy traffic>area on approach and I admit, the program did a good job>sorting through the mess. >>Judging by just the amount of user settings, the AI SEP>algorithm seems simpler than the AI SMOOTH algorithm. Also,>the straightline "slewing" of the AI aircraft backwards out of>the way seems positively brute force compared to AI SMOOTH. >Perhaps the "keep it simple" approach works best at extremely>busy airports however.>>It's really interesting how both of these utilities came out>about the same time in 2005. Several years later, threads>still pop up debating the merits of the two. >>From a AI engine/ATC code behavior stand point a backslew on final is better then a circuit slew at 15000 ft. 40 miles from a airport. This is because ATC Approach was the last ATC command sent to the AI Plane prior to a circuit slew.A backslew on final is after the last approach command and before the FAF trigger point for Tower to clear the plane for landing. This gives the AI Plane if it goes missed a better chance of re-establishing with the departure approach code.One of the drawbacks to backslew on final is if the Country is very small and the AI Plane backs out of the Country Boundary. Once a AI enters the Country boundary and then for some reasons is vectored back out of it or slews out it cannot return and continue the approach. The AI Plane either goes on to its next destination (based on FP) or pops up at the Stand. AI Seperation and AI Smooth were in beta for months and those of us that tested also compared them to the AI seperation system that the default FS9 uses.As stated earlier each seperation utility has its pro's and con's and the User decides what works best for them.

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I run AI Smooth 1.12 and I've been seeing a lot of slewing lately -- at least 1 every other flight. A lot meaning more than I saw with v1.11, which never seemed to slew.I don't have AI Separation installed -- Has anyone else seen AI Smooth exhibit this behavior at all?

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Using AI Smooth and receiving permission from ATC to "Taxi into position and Hold" at KBOS 33L, I was granted permission to take off. ATC alerted me to both landing AC on 4L and departing AC on 4R, both of which intersect 33L. Had I elected to take off at the moment ATC gave me permission, I would have come awfully close to a collision with AI AC on both 4L & 4R. Had I waited much longer, I had an arriving AC on 33L which probably would have been given a "go around".Question: Is either AI Smooth or AI Separation able to control this sort of activity so ATC gives me the correct (and safe) instructions to converging AC, or would I have to consider Radar Control to accomplish this?ThanksChris

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I don't think either program was ever meant to "control" AI -- I know that AI Smooth is meant to simply vector AI off as you make an approach and create fewer go arounds for the user. And that it dies well.Radar Control? Do you mean Radar Contact? If you mean the latter, Radar Contact is designed to "freeze" AI traffic after you're cleared to land or cleared to take off. Be advised there is no ground control with RC, so you have to watch cross traffic while taxiing, but most of the time the situation you describe is eliminated. I say "most of the time" because AI traffic is still goverened by each airline's flight plan and scheduling an depending on how much you run with, you may still find conflicts -- just like real life. In any event I highly, HIGHLY recommend Radar CONTACT. I held off buying it for a long time because I was intimidated but when i was finally ready, it did not disappoint. I can't fly withuot it.If you're NOT referring to Radar Contact, never mine. :-)

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Just to clarify:RC v4 freezes ground AI after you contact tower in the last few miles of final. It was intended to prevent landing runway encroachment by ground AI.

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Yes, I meant Radar Contact. Sorry for the misnomer, and thanks for your info. I guess I'll just have to keep a keen eye when taking off on crossing runways. I have considered RC4 but wonder if it is just a little too much for the casual flyer.

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>>I have considered RC4 but wonder if it is just a little too much for the casual flyer.No -- IMHO. Not at all, unless you're exclusively GA. Then, in that case yes probably. :-)

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