That is the most asinine parallel I've ever seen. Bugs being unveiled AFTER release is the normal course of software development. There hasn't been a software package (even LVLD and PMDG) that came out of the gates 100% perfect. Reputable developers only release when the test teams had thought they'd discovered/fixed all known bugs. What they DIDN'T do was say "we know there are still bugs, but we're going to release this anyway and charge you even more money to upgrade to the final (and hopefully fixed) product", which is EXACTLY what AirSimmer is doing.And AirSimmer isn't the one offering the 30-day refund, it's Flight1. Get your facts straight before opening mouth.Can you imagine if Level-D or PMDG pulled a stunt like this? And these would be companies that have already firmly established themselves as reputable developers. They're would be such an outcry the likes of which the community had never seen. What makes AirSimmer (with their "awesome" product) any different? 'cause they're the new kids on the block?

"And AirSimmer isn't the one offering the 30-day refund, it's Flight1. Get your facts straight before opening mouth. :( << is that a threat or just an immature comment from you! regardless of who is offering the refund its refund. :(

"And AirSimmer isn't the one offering the 30-day refund, it's Flight1. Get your facts straight before opening mouth. :( << is that a threat or just an immature comment from you! regardless of who is offering the refund its refund. :(

No, it's the facts. If you're going to support AirSimmer, at least get them right. AirSimmer isn't providing any sort of refund. They are relying on Flight1 to provide the refund coverage. Also, the fact that they went ahead and hit the release button without thinking this through or clearly articulating it at the time just goes to show this is a money grab by a developer for a shoddy product, hoping all their loyal and devoted followers will come to their defense despite all logic.There is no point discussing this with you anymore. Already know that AirSimmer could put out an AI version of an A320, with a cockpit mapped to the default 737, and call it the basic version and you'd gobble it up as a "work in process" for $40. Whatever. If people want to waste their money, and contribute to the decline in vendor quality, and encourage vendors to pull stunts like this, go for it. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

Can you imagine if ... PMDG pulled a stunt like this?

am i the only one that remembers the release of the 737NG by PMDG?--

No, it's the facts. If you're going to support AirSimmer, at least get them right. AirSimmer isn't providing any sort of refund. They are relying on Flight1 to provide the refund coverage. Also, the fact that they went ahead and hit the release button without thinking this through or clearly articulating it at the time just goes to show this is a money grab by a developer for a shoddy product, hoping all their loyal and devoted followers will come to their defense despite all logic.There is no point discussing this with you anymore. Already know that AirSimmer could put out an AI version of an A320, with a cockpit mapped to the default 737, and call it the basic version and you'd gobble it up as a "work in process" for $40. Whatever. If people want to waste their money, and contribute to the decline in vendor quality, and encourage vendors to pull stunts like this, go for it. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

I'm not paid or in any way associated with AirSimmer I just happen to be a supporter of the FS hobby that from the early 90s. It has changed so much and I've never seen so much "kick me where it hurts" attitude towards a product of the hobby. I do support some of the comments made regarding cost, quality and the release of such a product so early BUT reading through some of the forums you were all "gimme gimme gimme" now you all have a basic release, oh dear the babies thrown the bottle of out of the crib.

I'm not paid or in any way associated with AirSimmer I just happen to be a supporter of the FS hobby that from the early 90s. It has changed so much and I've never seen so much "kick me where it hurts" attitude towards a product of the hobby. I do support some of the comments made regarding cost, quality and the release of such a product so early BUT reading through some of the forums you were all "gimme gimme gimme" now you all have a basic release, oh dear the babies thrown the bottle of out of the crib.

The hobby is truly on a downward trend now. We have no more ACES and potentially no more versions of flight simulator as we know them now. Sure Aerosoft is working on an engine, but how long will that take and how will it look and replicate flight dynamics? So much goes into a flight sim, and most of them either look awful or have few features. ACES is reformed, but I guess that is independent of MS, so don't expect anymore MSFS from them. Unless the economy turns around and MS reconsiders a new version, we are done with MSFS. I'm sure some software will pick up the ball, whether it be Aerosoft or even X-Plane, but it could take ages before we see the kind of 3rd party add-ons and visuals that we have in MSFS.Then we have the payware developers. They seem to come and go with little word to anyone. The Airbus seems to be a problem for the community. AirlinerXP was announced with all it's luster, then without warning, it was vaporware. That product, combined with the talents on the team could have been the best we'd seen in a long time given the programming skills and representation we had with the RXP TAWS. Now even Dreamfleet, or at least Lou, seems to be history. Reality XP, as far as I can tell is dead. Jean-Luc seems to have disappeared as well. The whole AXP team have all become history.The we had the Airsimmer announced and the PMDG. I honestly think the PMDG was shelved and we won't see an Airbus from PMDG unless all others are proven failures. We know the AirlinerXP is a failure. I have grave concerns about the Airsimmer and I am on the ET. Unfortunately I can't say why, and since the product isn't finished, I might be proven wrong, but I'm already unhappy with a major aspect of the plane that won't be fixed. Suffice to say I haven't even been active on the ET forum or even messed with the Airbus because I'm disappointed with the progress and overall implementation. All I can say is it was a mistake to join the ET and I honestly believe the advanced package will be less than promised by far. The bar was set too high, and even if the Airsimmer becomes the best Airbus released for MSFS, it won't be what most of us were lead to believe it would be. Maybe my expectations are way too high, but I really think the Airsimmer team is in over their head and thus it's taking way longer than expected. I'm just not confident. I'm at a loss as to why so many ET members are so positive. Moving on from the Airbus discussions, you then have a myriad of products that are released with little support and no patches or one or two patches that don't fix all the problems, then nothing. "Sorry, but we are done updating the product, we think it's just fine". In some cases maybe, but in other cases this is unacceptable. How about all the products announced that never see the light of day? Why even bother? Other developers who might be motivated to make such a product will see these announcements and decide to do something else, then we get nothing. The whole payware industry is a mess right now. Maybe it's the economy, but they're not putting their best foot forward. Even the best payware developers are dropping the ball lately IMO. One developer I used to rate the highest on the list is telling customers nothing about fixes and even saying they have no updates scheduled right now, so basically no work it being done on an expensive product that has major problems. The other developer I always considered the best in terms of software (bug-free, realism) is saying no more updates for a product that maybe has 4 or 5 things wrong with it. WTH? This makes no sense. I'm just burned out with the attitudes and business practices. Combine that with the fact ACES is gone for now and a potential replacement is years away, and I'm slowly reducing my time involving myself with it. It's just as well. I start nursing school in two weeks and won't really have time to play much anyhow. Hopefully, when I'm finished with school and have more time to play with the sim things will have improved and I will be willing to spend money on it again. In hindsight, with FSX being such a computer hog with odd bugs, I'm glad I never spent a bunch of money I didn't have to try and make it work. I'll just stick to FS9 and enjoy what I've got, even in limited quantity now.

The hobby is truly on a downward trend now. We have no more ACES and potentially no more versions of flight simulator as we know them now. Sure Aerosoft is working on an engine, but how long will that take and how will it look and replicate flight dynamics? So much goes into a flight sim, and most of them either look awful or have few features. ACES is reformed, but I guess that is independent of MS, so don't expect anymore MSFS from them. Unless the economy turns around and MS reconsiders a new version, we are done with MSFS. I'm sure some software will pick up the ball, whether it be Aerosoft or even X-Plane, but it could take ages before we see the kind of 3rd party add-ons and visuals that we have in MSFS.Then we have the payware developers. They seem to come and go with little word to anyone. The Airbus seems to be a problem for the community. AirlinerXP was announced with all it's luster, then without warning, it was vaporware. That product, combined with the talents on the team could have been the best we'd seen in a long time given the programming skills and representation we had with the RXP TAWS. Now even Dreamfleet, or at least Lou, seems to be history. Reality XP, as far as I can tell is dead. Jean-Luc seems to have disappeared as well. The whole AXP team have all become history.The we had the Airsimmer announced and the PMDG. I honestly think the PMDG was shelved and we won't see an Airbus from PMDG unless all others are proven failures. We know the AirlinerXP is a failure. I have grave concerns about the Airsimmer and I am on the ET. Unfortunately I can't say why, and since the product isn't finished, I might be proven wrong, but I'm already unhappy with a major aspect of the plane that won't be fixed. Suffice to say I haven't even been active on the ET forum or even messed with the Airbus because I'm disappointed with the progress and overall implementation. All I can say is it was a mistake to join the ET and I honestly believe the advanced package will be less than promised by far. The bar was set too high, and even if the Airsimmer becomes the best Airbus released for MSFS, it won't be what most of us were lead to believe it would be. Maybe my expectations are way too high, but I really think the Airsimmer team is in over their head and thus it's taking way longer than expected. I'm just not confident. I'm at a loss as to why so many ET members are so positive. Moving on from the Airbus discussions, you then have a myriad of products that are released with little support and no patches or one or two patches that don't fix all the problems, then nothing. "Sorry, but we are done updating the product, we think it's just fine". In some cases maybe, but in other cases this is unacceptable. How about all the products announced that never see the light of day? Why even bother? Other developers who might be motivated to make such a product will see these announcements and decide to do something else, then we get nothing. The whole payware industry is a mess right now. Maybe it's the economy, but they're not putting their best foot forward. Even the best payware developers are dropping the ball lately IMO. One developer I used to rate the highest on the list is telling customers nothing about fixes and even saying they have no updates scheduled right now, so basically no work it being done on an expensive product that has major problems. The other developer I always considered the best in terms of software (bug-free, realism) is saying no more updates for a product that maybe has 4 or 5 things wrong with it. WTH? This makes no sense. I'm just burned out with the attitudes and business practices. Combine that with the fact ACES is gone for now and a potential replacement is years away, and I'm slowly reducing my time involving myself with it. It's just as well. I start nursing school in two weeks and won't really have time to play much anyhow. Hopefully, when I'm finished with school and have more time to play with the sim things will have improved and I will be willing to spend money on it again. In hindsight, with FSX being such a computer hog with odd bugs, I'm glad I never spent a bunch of money I didn't have to try and make it work. I'll just stick to FS9 and enjoy what I've got, even in limited quantity now.

The community is certainly getting smaller due to the hardware costs and time that it takes to master most of these aftermarket products. My only advice to all is to do your due diligence before purchasing a product. Airsimmer looks like they are on the right track in terms of the product, but they had to release it early due to development costs. I hope for their sake and ours, that they have enough funds to release a polished product for FSX. I have been VERY impressed with what they have shown us on youtube so far.

The community is certainly getting smaller due to the hardware costs and time that it takes to master most of these aftermarket products. My only advice to all is to do your due diligence before purchasing a product. Airsimmer looks like they are on the right track in terms of the product, but they had to release it early due to development costs. I hope for their sake and ours, that they have enough funds to release a polished product for FSX. I have been VERY impressed with what they have shown us on youtube so far.

I agree I think they are on the right track, with AirSimmer like alot of FS developers they have started out with the same goals, great aspirations for their product as we wanted them to do but the world went poo! in the last 2 years. We've all had to make changes, AirSimmer not only to delivery of the best product and but the financial cost aspect of how far can they continue without some form of income - after all its a business.It's getting serious the demands placed on FS software developers and I for one really like to see quality, honesty in a product that delivers what is says because some sites are still in "production" ??B757 for one.I suppose this has really opened up the debate is this a "game OR not"? because for some of you this cost more then the Friday night drinks!! and the reaction is like having drank a bad drink :( Thought: This must be the only business were by a manufacture can produce a none-near perfect product, get paid the full whack, have customers complain and still divide us all on if we should be buy the next item. :(

The community is certainly getting smaller due to the hardware costs and time that it takes to master most of these aftermarket products. My only advice to all is to do your due diligence before purchasing a product. Airsimmer looks like they are on the right track in terms of the product, but they had to release it early due to development costs. I hope for their sake and ours, that they have enough funds to release a polished product for FSX. I have been VERY impressed with what they have shown us on youtube so far.

And we might all be very happy with the finished advanced product in the end. Every product has to start somewhere and progress through various stages. My decision to join ET was based on the talk that they were close to completion and that ended up being misleading.As far as youtube videos are concerned, anyone can fool you with angles and editing. Ariane is one product that has looked amazing in screenshots or even video, but I owned one of their VCe 737NGs and it was a POS.

And we might all be very happy with the finished advanced product in the end. Every product has to start somewhere and progress through various stages. My decision to join ET was based on the talk that they were close to completion and that ended up being misleading.As far as youtube videos are concerned, anyone can fool you with angles and editing. Ariane is one product that has looked amazing in screenshots or even video, but I owned one of their VCe 737NGs and it was a POS.

YES Ariane is POS.."Great Marketing" though but anyone with sense would avoid the product given the attitude of the support its been like that for years and thats one costly product. Anyway if I wanted to pay to be abused I wouldn't buy an Ariane product! its only one way abuse! THEIRS :(

am i the only one that remembers the release of the 737NG by PMDG?--

Scoob:I remember the PMDG 737NG release, it was an horrific fiasco. That being said, PMDG went heads down with their nose to the grindstone and fixed their NG series, DID NOT offer a cop out with "basic" vs "advanced" nonesense, did not charge their customers extra for the final promised version, and eventually fixed their product so that 6 years later I am still flying it as my stable heavy iron. And without a doubt the PMDG NG is still a viable purchase as it approaches almost a decade since release (my only gripe is that it never got a working INS). PMDG is now the most preeminant and one of the most respected aircraft developers for FS9 and FSX period.I'm no PMDG a really excited user but it would be as easy to point that same finger at Wilco / Feelthere for surely there is much broken glass to be cleaned up over in that house!

Chris, Thanks for your thoughts concerning AirSimmer. It confirms what I have suspected for a while now,that they were not quite as far along in the development process as they were letting on. The events of the past 24 hours don't do anything to dispell that feeling. I think it will be quite a while before we see the advanced version, and if they're hurting for funds it might take even longer. I would be very careful though, not to take a chance on violating your NDA by giving out too much information.

Chris, Thanks for your thoughts concerning AirSimmer. It confirms what I have suspected for a while now,that they were not quite as far along in the development process as they were letting on. The events of the past 24 hours don't do anything to dispell that feeling. I think it will be quite a while before we see the advanced version, and if they're hurting for funds it might take even longer. I would be very careful though, not to take a chance on violating your NDA by giving out too much information.

I honestly don't think anything I've said has violated the NDA as an ET member, other than I have concerns. As I stated, I might end up proven wrong in the end, and I hope that is the case. Either way, I'm gonna be too busy to even bother with it now, so it's a wash either way.

AirSimmer will make mistakes like any newbie would I'm sure all will sort itself out in the mean time I only fly in FSX SO for me the dodgy Airbus model in FSX is all I have but practice makes perfect - if not alot of practice :( Microsoft Flight Simulator IS NOT DEAD - in a coma YES but not DEAD..you heard it here first that's all I can say. DATE 2014 keep that date tagged. :(

am i the only one that remembers the release of the 737NG by PMDG?--

Obviously there were issues with the original FS2002 NG release (which was our first ever MSFS release coming off years of designing for Fly/Fly2) - I think the clear difference here though is that we issued a massive update that fixed everything and it was free to all users. What happened with the NG wasn't a "stunt", we acknowledged the issues and everything was fixed at no additional cost.Regardless, that was 7 years ago and nothing even remotely like it has occurred here since.

Ladies and Gentlemen,I think the comparison between PMDG and Airsimmer became a mute point this weekend.