I dont really care about the price of TrackIR, for me its about accessability. In a real life 757 you dont have to point a mouse pointer at a 5x5 pixel spot to manipulate the altitude selector on the glareshield. You just move your arm, you would know where the knob is blindfolded and it would be very easy to manipulate. In a VC not so much. In a VC you have to hit the exact spot with your mouse pointer. I have to be the Captain and the copilot at the same time, and some times ever the flight engineer.During a busy departure the last thing I want to have to worry about is if im actually clicking one of those 5 pixels. Thats why I find the 2d panel superior in high workload situations. If I had $20 000 to spend on a cockpit I'm sure I would never use a 2d panel ever again, however, the VC does help reducing the workload in any way, shape or form

Haha you're still pointing a cursor to click a switch or turn a knob, but I will say the spot is a bit larger, maybe 10x10 LOL

Spud said "I was wondering if anyone knows of any 727's currently being developed for FSX with detailed systems and accurate flight model? "Indeed there is :( However, just to clarify your comments above about inaccuracies, were you suggesting these are issues with the FS9 Dreamfleet/Flight 1 727 or another aircraft?

With the track IR. I have the main screen and directly ABOVE the main screen i have a 2nd monitor . DO or should a guy have a monitor on each side of the main monitor which then you would have 3 or can you get total satisfaction with the set up i have, cause i've been pondering getting the IR for the longest time now

In a VC you have to hit the exact spot with your mouse pointer.

.... and that's no problem with TrackIR. I have a Logitech Revolution MX mouse, and by button assignment - one can freeze and zoom instantly., and with no searching around for the right key to press. As far as the "busy departure" - I fly the Leonardo Maddog.... 'nuff said.

Spud said "I was wondering if anyone knows of any 727's currently being developed for FSX with detailed systems and accurate flight model? "Indeed there is :(

This is still good to know, Paul, but I guess - along with all the other FSX users waiting for the best 727 ever to be released - I'm asking (again) (sorry)- any hint as to when? :(

I realize that these days most people prefer the "feel" of the VC, and that is understandable. Aa a real work private pilot, I don't find the virtual cockpit to be anything like when I am piloting a real airplane. Part of the problem for me is that I feel like the whole inside is moving around, and also I don't feel as if the line of sight is as good. I think I can get used to the VC during cruise, but on take off and landing it just drives me nuts. I suppose TrackIR may solve some of these issues, but I don't have it at this point. Again, I know I am in the minority here, but that said I really do wish that the developers can keep the 2d pits in these things and then both sides would be happy. I will admit, however, that I have no basis to determine how much extra time or cost woulg be involved in adding a 2d cockpit but it would seem not to be too much of an issue. Cheers, Pete

I'm a pilot as well and FS9/FSX with a good VC and TrackIR is second to none or should I say next best thing to being there. With CH Yoke/Peddles and TrackIR I for the life of me can't understand how real world pilots can come in here and say 2D panels are more realistic (GA or Big Iron). First off in a real plane you don't have the luxury of having a panel right in front of your face or key strokes for pop-up windows. You have to look down to see the main panel if your sitting in the cockpit correctly. In a real plane you have to look up for access to the overhead, down to grab your flap handle or adjust trim, and look lower right to see what your engine gauges are doing. With TrackIR you can do all this in the VC very realistically. In a real plane your eyes are outside of the aircraft most of the time with quick glances at your gauges for reference. With pattern work your eyes are really outside the bird for reference. Many people with track IR don't know how to configure it properly. When it comes to airliner flying I turn off the axis where if you move your head forward or side to side you have that in the sim. I found that too unrealistic as you don't move to that extreme in a real cockpit. I'm happy with the simple ability to turn my head left and right and move my heard up and down is a stationary position in the sim. In GA aircraft (especially) you can't beat TrackIR and a good VC. You truly are only missing the actual motion of the real aircraft, everything else is there...Oh, yea it also helps to have a nice size flat screen monitor to go along with what I mentioned above...

Quoting Paul:

However, just to clarify your comments above about inaccuracies, were you suggesting these are issues with the FS9 Dreamfleet/Flight 1 727 or another aircraft?

To clarify, I was speaking of the current products out for FSX. The DF FS9 version met all my requirements. Was/still is one of my favorites though I no longer maintain FS9 on my system. Glad to see your comments here Paul. Spud

This is still good to know, Paul, but I guess - along with all the other FSX users waiting for the best 727 ever to be released - I'm asking (again) (sorry)- any hint as to when? :(

They say that compliments will get you everything...........except any suggestion of a release date, sorry.I do this developing stuff for the fun of it and have no imaginary or real deadlines to break. I won't even say "when it's ready", because that's a kind of obvious thing anyway, even when a release date is given.However, I will say that 2010 will not be included in the release date.Thanks for the kind words though.

Quoting Paul:To clarify, I was speaking of the current products out for FSX. The DF FS9 version met all my requirements. Was/still is one of my favorites though I no longer maintain FS9 on my system. Glad to see your comments here Paul. Spud

Cool, just checking :(

I'm a pilot as well and FS9/FSX with a good VC and TrackIR is second to none or should I say next best thing to being there. With CH Yoke/Peddles and TrackIR I for the life of me can't understand how real world pilots can come in here and say 2D panels are more realistic (GA or Big Iron). First off in a real plane you don't have the luxury of having a panel right in front of your face or key strokes for pop-up windows. You have to look down to see the main panel if your sitting in the cockpit correctly. In a real plane you have to look up for access to the overhead, down to grab your flap handle or adjust trim, and look lower right to see what your engine gauges are doing. With TrackIR you can do all this in the VC very realistically. In a real plane your eyes are outside of the aircraft most of the time with quick glances at your gauges for reference. With pattern work your eyes are really outside the bird for reference. Many people with track IR don't know how to configure it properly. When it comes to airliner flying I turn off the axis where if you move your head forward or side to side you have that in the sim. I found that too unrealistic as you don't move to that extreme in a real cockpit. I'm happy with the simple ability to turn my head left and right and move my heard up and down is a stationary position in the sim. In GA aircraft (especially) you can't beat TrackIR and a good VC. You truly are only missing the actual motion of the real aircraft, everything else is there...Oh, yea it also helps to have a nice size flat screen monitor to go along with what I mentioned above...

I agree with this completely, I just have a button on my joystick for quick shut-off of track IR when I want to twiddle with a little knob (which can be tough if the clickspot is small and your track IR is detecting small movements).o/w track IR in a heavy bird is just as immersive as in a small GA craft.

Haha you're still pointing a cursor to click a switch or turn a knob, but I will say the spot is a bit larger, maybe 10x10 LOL

The spot is at the exact same place every time and it doesnt move around like it does in the VC

... As far as the "busy departure" - I fly the Leonardo Maddog.... 'nuff said.

I didnt get that one, are you saying you are always flying using the shared cockpit feature?

I'm a pilot as well and FS9/FSX with a good VC and TrackIR is second to none or should I say next best thing to being there. With CH Yoke/Peddles and TrackIR I for the life of me can't understand how real world pilots can come in here and say 2D panels are more realistic (GA or Big Iron). First off in a real plane you don't have the luxury of having a panel right in front of your face or key strokes for pop-up windows. You have to look down to see the main panel if your sitting in the cockpit correctly. In a real plane you have to look up for access to the overhead, down to grab your flap handle or adjust trim, and look lower right to see what your engine gauges are doing. With TrackIR you can do all this in the VC very realistically. In a real plane your eyes are outside of the aircraft most of the time with quick glances at your gauges for reference. With pattern work your eyes are really outside the bird for reference. Many people with track IR don't know how to configure it properly. When it comes to airliner flying I turn off the axis where if you move your head forward or side to side you have that in the sim. I found that too unrealistic as you don't move to that extreme in a real cockpit. I'm happy with the simple ability to turn my head left and right and move my heard up and down is a stationary position in the sim. In GA aircraft (especially) you can't beat TrackIR and a good VC. You truly are only missing the actual motion of the real aircraft, everything else is there...Oh, yea it also helps to have a nice size flat screen monitor to go along with what I mentioned above...

Just to clarify, I never said that the 2d panel is more realistic; it is not for obvious reasons. I have been willing to give up the realism, perhaps because I do fly real planes, in order to have the ability to manipulate the aircraft better. Since I fly GA only in the real world, I almost never fly GA in the sim world. That said, when flying a 747, I have nothing to compare it to in the real world. Regarding TrackIR, I have considered getting this since it really does look like it would transform the experience. My only concern is that I would not want to do a great deal of tweaking. If all I fly are commercial jets (and the occasional ATR, etc.), would it be as simple as setting the system up once and you are good to go? Although it is expensive, TrackIR is not a monumental investment. If I was fairly certain it would make a difference in an easy manner, I would get it.Cheers, Pete

The spot is at the exact same place every time and it doesnt move around like it does in the VC

The spot doesn't move in the VC either... at least not in any of the payware VC's I use.

Thats weird, cause it happens in all of my paywares, infact, i would swear it was an FSX feature. Whenever you turn / climb / descent the camera moves a tiny bit as well

I didn't get that one, are you saying you are always flying using the shared cockpit feature?

No, I only fly solo, and usually with FS Passengers, Wims, but there are dozens of Maddog flyers that share the flight deck as Captain and F/O all the time. Check out the forum: - (look for Cyril or Mauro)http://www.flythemaddog.com/forum/index.php?showforum=24The Maddog is different in that the flight model, the system integrity and the workload are such that one had better have everything done and buttoned up before one brings the throttles to vertical and turns the auto-throttle on. It's a busy take-off and climb, with consequences for sloppy procedures.

Just to clarify, I never said that the 2d panel is more realistic; it is not for obvious reasons. I have been willing to give up the realism, perhaps because I do fly real planes, in order to have the ability to manipulate the aircraft better. Since I fly GA only in the real world, I almost never fly GA in the sim world. That said, when flying a 747, I have nothing to compare it to in the real world. Regarding TrackIR, I have considered getting this since it really does look like it would transform the experience. My only concern is that I would not want to do a great deal of tweaking. If all I fly are commercial jets (and the occasional ATR, etc.), would it be as simple as setting the system up once and you are good to go? Although it is expensive, TrackIR is not a monumental investment. If I was fairly certain it would make a difference in an easy manner, I would get it.Cheers, Pete

TrackIR is very easy to get into. Like I said above I don't use the axis that moves with your whole head motion meaning if you lean forward the view leans forward in the sim (same with side to side). That just doesn't work for me. The config utility that comes with TrackIR is easier to use than the download version (if nothing has changed in what they include with the shipped product). I use TrackIR 5 which is very nice. You really need a Yoke/Peddles setup, my monitor is a 23" flat panel, and I use the clip that fits to your earphones that TrackIR sells separately. For the record I've flown a real 744 Level-D simulator here in Eagan MN. Believe me what we get in FS visually (both FSX and FS9) is better than the big sims. That being said we have allot at our fingertips that's pretty much the same thing as the real birds. What made the big sim easy for me to get into is being acclimated to the flight deck. It's just the same and PMDG's 744 add-on. TrackIR allows one to look around and adjust things just like in the real bird. Again the only thing you can't simulate in the sim is the motion and feel of the bird around you. Everything else is there including looking around as you would in the real world within the cockpit. I'd tell anyone since we have the technology now Flight Simulator without yoke/peddles/TrackIR is like Pancakes without syrup or cereal without milk...

TrackIR is very easy to get into. Like I said above I don't use the axis that moves with your whole head motion meaning if you lean forward the view leans forward in the sim (same with side to side). That just doesn't work for me. The config utility that comes with TrackIR is easier to use than the download version (if nothing has changed in what they include with the shipped product). I use TrackIR 5 which is very nice. You really need a Yoke/Peddles setup, my monitor is a 23" flat panel, and I use the clip that fits to your earphones that TrackIR sells separately. For the record I've flown a real 744 Level-D simulator here in Eagan MN. Believe me what we get in FS visually (both FSX and FS9) is better than the big sims. That being said we have allot at our fingertips that's pretty much the same thing as the real birds. What made the big sim easy for me to get into is being acclimated to the flight deck. It's just the same and PMDG's 744 add-on. TrackIR allows one to look around and adjust things just like in the real bird. Again the only thing you can't simulate in the sim is the motion and feel of the bird around you. Everything else is there including looking around as you would in the real world within the cockpit. I'd tell anyone since we have the technology now Flight Simulator without yoke/peddles/TrackIR is like Pancakes without syrup or cereal without milk...

It sounds like a great setup. I actually don't have the yoke and pedals either, but have used both before. I always had stability issues with the yoke and pedals. Part of the issue is having the right desk to mount the yoke on. Based on your post, though, do you see much benefit in getting TrackIR without using yoke and pedals, or is it really sort of pointless (as you said "pancake w/o syrup) if I was to use trackir with a stick? I suppose that setup would run in the $500 range for all three, but if they sold the TrackIR at Fry's Electronics then I would be able try all three and return if it wasn't working for me.Cheers, Pete