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TheBFG

Developers who still use multiple vcockpit entries (iFly)

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Before buying the new iFly 737, I asked a buddy to send me the panel.cfg from his new purchase.The file contains 4 vcockpit entries. This means that all VC gauges will only run at your sim fps divided by FOUR. If you want gauges running at 15fps, your sim needs to be doing 60, which is near impossible.Why do developers still do this? PMDG's newer products get around this by combining all gauges into a single vcockpit entry. I never buy an aircraft with more than 2 vcockpit entries, because with more they are basically unflyable. You can't have gauges refreshing at 5-10 fps, and I don't understand how so many people clearly put up with it without even noticing. It's a total show stopper for me.So after much excitement, there's no way I can buy this aircraft. And I have indeed now been hearing about painfully slow gauges in the VC. iFly's solution: set your sim to run at unlimited fps. That's really poor.What confuses me is why this issue doesn't get more attention. Surely these pathetic gauge refresh rates in these poorly designed VCs irritate the hell out of others too.In the PMDG 737 they use 3, and I disable the overhead panel entry to get it down to 2, making the aircraft flyable, and using the popup overhead panel instead. iFly has 4, and you can't remove any of them while retaining basic functionality. So the gauges will run at only 5fps if your frames are locked to 20. And then they charge you $55 for it.lol no thanks.I'll take my iFly money and spend it on some of those new Aerosoft FS9 airports, and fly there with my PMDG 737 with its gauges that update more than once a day.

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Guest belga1

Hello,Interesting.Was not aware of this phenomena .. or at least ... the cause ..Can you elaborate a further more ?Regards.bye.gifGus.

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belga1: The problem is that FS can only handle one vcockpit entry per "cycle". So your VC gauges will always be restricted to your fps divided by number of vcockpit entries.It's the way FS has always been, and the reason for PMDG coming up with such an ingenious solution to the problem.Other developers really should try sticking to a maximum of 2 entries. 3 is possible, if you can remove one of them ala-overhead panel in the PMDG 737. But FOUR... that kills everything.

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belga1: The problem is that FS can only handle one vcockpit entry per "cycle". So your VC gauges will always be restricted to your fps divided by number of vcockpit entries.It's the way FS has always been, and the reason for PMDG coming up with such an ingenious solution to the problem.Other developers really should try sticking to a maximum of 2 entries. 3 is possible, if you can remove one of them ala-overhead panel in the PMDG 737. But FOUR... that kills everything.
HelloFour is a big improvement from the Ariane BBJ which had around 17 entries.

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Four is a big improvement from the Ariane BBJ which had around 17 entries
Wow, that means Ariane VC users were flying at around 2FPS? :Hypnotized:I didn't know about this problem. Seriously.Maybe because I'm a 2D flyer.

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HelloFour is a big improvement from the Ariane BBJ which had around 17 entries.
Woah... lolSo about 1-2 fps on those gauges then.
Wow, that means Ariane VC users were flying at around 2FPS? :Hypnotized:I didn't know about this problem. Seriously.Maybe because I'm a 2D flyer.
Yeah this will not affect those who fly in the 2D cockpit, but I hate the 2D cockpit :)

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Woah... lolSo about 1-2 fps on those gauges then.Yeah this will not affect those who fly in the 2D cockpit, but I hate the 2D cockpit :)
HelloYou could be nearly finished flying the SID before they indicated the first turn :(

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Wow, that means Ariane VC users were flying at around 2FPS? :Hypnotized:I didn't know about this problem. Seriously.Maybe because I'm a 2D flyer.
Yup. The aircraft performs fine, but the refresh rate of the gauges is absolutely horrible. It is the reason I have not reinstalled the plane on my new machine...

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I didnt know about this either.That is not good at all, How many does the Leveld 767 have???EDIT: it has three, So for sure the IFLY has 4 of them??

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Before buying the new iFly 737, I asked a buddy to send me the panel.cfg from his new purchase.The file contains 4 vcockpit entries. This means that all VC gauges will only run at your sim fps divided by FOUR. If you want gauges running at 15fps, your sim needs to be doing 60, which is near impossible.Why do developers still do this? PMDG's newer products get around this by combining all gauges into a single vcockpit entry. I never buy an aircraft with more than 2 vcockpit entries, because with more they are basically unflyable. You can't have gauges refreshing at 5-10 fps, and I don't understand how so many people clearly put up with it without even noticing. It's a total show stopper for me.So after much excitement, there's no way I can buy this aircraft. And I have indeed now been hearing about painfully slow gauges in the VC. iFly's solution: set your sim to run at unlimited fps. That's really poor.What confuses me is why this issue doesn't get more attention. Surely these pathetic gauge refresh rates in these poorly designed VCs irritate the hell out of others too.In the PMDG 737 they use 3, and I disable the overhead panel entry to get it down to 2, making the aircraft flyable, and using the popup overhead panel instead. iFly has 4, and you can't remove any of them while retaining basic functionality. So the gauges will run at only 5fps if your frames are locked to 20. And then they charge you $55 for it.lol no thanks.I'll take my iFly money and spend it on some of those new Aerosoft FS9 airports, and fly there with my PMDG 737 with its gauges that update more than once a day.
I posted this over on iFly's support page to hopefully get addressed. My question is now how do we correct this in the mean time?

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I guess im on hold now till further notice, I was really pumped for this, but good that I learned about this. Im not a 100% VC user but like it to be usuable when i want to use it.How does one disable a section of the VC, and exactly what does that do while in the sim???? not clickable Im guessing?

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O.K. I looked at this thinking something didn't sound right. First off the iFly panel.cfg file only contains '3' VC cockpit entries not '4'. None of the gauges repeat themselves in the various sections. I know what the original poster is talking about but this is not the case here. Yes they could drop the sections down to two but when gauges aren't repeating themselves there is no instance of a gauge loading 4x in one session. The reason the various sections is done this way is you can have a lower resolution in one section of the VC that's less critical than another. You can have the best resolution in the area where the PFD and ND screens reside. I'm not buying this when it comes to this bird but like I said I understand the point. Some developers are clueless on this and others are doing this for a reason to actually increase VC performance not take away from it... :(

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O.K. I looked at this thinking something didn't sound right. First off the panel.cfg file only contains '3' VC cockpit entries not '4'. None of the gauges repeat themselves in the various sections. I know what the original poster is talking about but this is not the case here. Yes they could drop the sections down to two but when gauges aren't repeating themselves there is no instance of a gauge loading 4x in one session. The reason the various sections is done this way is you can have a lower resolution in one section of the VC that's less critical than another. You can have the best resolution in the area where the PFD and ND screens reside. I'm not buying this when it comes to this bird but like I said I understand the point. Some developers are clueless on this and others are doing for a reason to actually increase VC performance... :(
So i would be able to lower the resolution on one section of the vc to acheive better performance?? How is this done?ThanksIm so confused now while deciding to make the purchase now or wait.

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So i would be able to lower the resolution on one section of the vc to acheive better performance?? How is this done?ThanksIm so confused now while deciding to make the purchase now or wait.
[VCockpit01]size_mm=1024,1024pixel_size=1024,1024texture=$Gauge_01background_color=0,0,0An example here is changing the setting 'pixel_size=512,512' in the next VC section that you could program for the center panel between the seats. A third section could deal with the overhead panel and the fourth could deal with the co-pilot side of the VC.

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[VCockpit01]size_mm=1024,1024pixel_size=1024,1024texture=$Gauge_01background_color=0,0,0An example here is changing the setting 'pixel_size=512,512' in the next VC section that you could program for the center panel between the seats. A third section could deal with the overhead panel and the fourth could deal with the co-pilot side of the VC.
Thanks

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O.K. I looked at this thinking something didn't sound right. First off the iFly panel.cfg file only contains '3' VC cockpit entries not '4'. None of the gauges repeat themselves in the various sections. I know what the original poster is talking about but this is not the case here. Yes they could drop the sections down to two but when gauges aren't repeating themselves there is no instance of a gauge loading 4x in one session. The reason the various sections is done this way is you can have a lower resolution in one section of the VC that's less critical than another. You can have the best resolution in the area where the PFD and ND screens reside. I'm not buying this when it comes to this bird but like I said I understand the point. Some developers are clueless on this and others are doing this for a reason to actually increase VC performance not take away from it... :(
Ok upon investigation I was sent the panel.cfg from a model with the HUD, which adds a 4th VC entry. Thing is, even 3 is too many for me. I don't know how people fly IFR with gauges that update only every third time the scenery outside the window updates.The above post is a bit confusing though, as this is indeed the case here, it can't not be, it's a rule of FS. Frame Rate / Vcockpit entries = VC gauge frame rate. Go ahead, try it out, take all of them out except one. You'll only have a few gauges with they'll run super smooth.There is no way that adding vcockpit sections can or has ever improved performance. I understand what you're saying about the textures but what's the point in gaining 1fps from a smaller texture and then sacrificing 10 by adding another vcockpit section? That argument just doesn't work at all. Can you clarify what you mean by gauges loading "4x in a session"? I'm probably confused but there's no need to ever load a gauge over and over? This problem is something else completely.Have a look at the PMDG 747 panel.cfg. One entry, and the smoothest VC gauges anywhere. Like I said even with the PMDG 737, you can turn off the overhead panel and use the popup instead, making it 2 vc sections = flyable. I do know though that with all 3 in there, it becomes a chore just to roll out smoothly after a turn in IFR conditions because the stupid gauges only show you what's going on every year.You can't take out any of the sections in the iFly version as they all contain something critical, and if you're flying with a HUD model, you'll be seeing gauges going at about 5fps. I just don't see the point, or how developers (and customers for that matter), put up with these plainly unflyable VCs. I've seen a few real gems too, freeware addons with 20 vcockpit sections. Clearly nobody who made those addons ever bothered to actually try flying it from the VC.

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So i would be able to lower the resolution on one section of the vc to acheive better performance?? How is this done?ThanksIm so confused now while deciding to make the purchase now or wait.
Nope. This *might* squeeze about half a frame per second out of the sim, but does nothing to the gauges fps at all. Changing res is something you do to bump up the overall fps of the sim by a tiny bit. The gauges will still only refresh at a third of whatever the main sim fps is. I'd say it's not worth even trying to do such a thing, it will make very very little difference and the visual difference is probably not worth it :(By all means buy it and experiment, by all accounts it will otherwise be a great aircraft once the niggles are sorted out. Personally I just can't stand slow and/or jerky gauges. Maybe this is what happens when you fly real aeroplanes, I shudder at the default FS9 steam gauges, RealityXP a really excited user :) The QUALITY of the iFly project seems right up there, but slow vc gauges stop the show.

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Ok upon investigation I was sent the panel.cfg from a model with the HUD, which adds a 4th VC entry. Thing is, even 3 is too many for me. I don't know how people fly IFR with gauges that update only every third time the scenery outside the window updates.The above post is a bit confusing though, as this is indeed the case here, it can't not be, it's a rule of FS. Frame Rate / Vcockpit entries = VC gauge frame rate. Go ahead, try it out, take all of them out except one. You'll only have a few gauges with they'll run super smooth.There is no way that adding vcockpit sections can or has ever improved performance. I understand what you're saying about the textures but what's the point in gaining 1fps from a smaller texture and then sacrificing 10 by adding another vcockpit section? That argument just doesn't work at all. Can you clarify what you mean by gauges loading "4x in a session"? I'm probably confused but there's no need to ever load a gauge over and over? This problem is something else completely.Have a look at the PMDG 747 panel.cfg. One entry, and the smoothest VC gauges anywhere. Like I said even with the PMDG 737, you can turn off the overhead panel and use the popup instead, making it 2 vc sections = flyable. I do know though that with all 3 in there, it becomes a chore just to roll out smoothly after a turn in IFR conditions because the stupid gauges only show you what's going on every year.You can't take out any of the sections in the iFly version as they all contain something critical, and if you're flying with a HUD model, you'll be seeing gauges going at about 5fps. I just don't see the point, or how developers (and customers for that matter), put up with these plainly unflyable VCs. I've seen a few real gems too, freeware addons with 20 vcockpit sections. Clearly nobody who made those addons ever bothered to actually try flying it from the VC.
This sounds like you've wrote this aircraft off without even trying on your system. You can't look at the panel.cfg file and assume you know how it performs in the sim. The gauges are as fluid as any other add-on like PMDG's MD11. There is no degradation in gauge performance with the iFly 737NG. I suggest you try it before you come in here and knock it. You had me going for a minute there until I looked at things myself as I own the product.Once again there is no repeat entries in the panel.cfg file to cause multiple loading of the gauges, that's just false. Second multiple VC entries doesn't automatically equate to slow gauge performance. You'll only find that with what I wrote above. I'm going to flag this because your spreading untruths in the forum that could ultimately hurt sales for this excellent add-on in an already fragile FS9 market. Until you buy it and try it out for yourself you can't come in here speaking on a product you really know nothing about... :(

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The gauges are as fluid as any other add-on like PMDG's MD11.
Not true. I have now seen it in action at said friend's house over the weekend. The VC gauges are slow. His MD-11 is fine. Reduce the vcockpit entries and voila. The aircraft is otherwise very very nice I must say.
Once again there is no repeat entries in the panel.cfg file to cause multiple loading of the gauges, that's just false.
When have I ever said anything about "multiple loading of gauges"? You're the only one going on about this and I don't know what you mean. There is no multiple loading of gauges, not here or anywhere. What repeat entries in the panel.cfg?
Second multiple VC entries doesn't automatically equate to slow gauge performance.
Yes it does, as per the equation above. Fact.
I'm going to flag this because your spreading untruths in the forum
If we're going to be flagging threads for untruths then this one probably should be flagged, thanks to your statements above.
Until you buy it and try it out for yourself you can't come in here speaking on a product you really know nothing about
Yes I can. It's a relatively expensive addon, one which I've now witnessed in action and am glad I did not purchase yet. These things could of course be ironed out in future and I hope they are because it is otherwise great.Just trying to help anyway. People who don't like slow refresh rates in their VC gauges won't like this setup. I couldn't live with those gauges, and people are complaining on other forums too. There's nothing wrong with discussing a new product and only harping on about something's good points is hardly fair to anyone who may be reading. If something irritates me then perhaps it will irritate others too and they should know about it. This is a real issue, not just with this product but many others, no point trying to sweep it under the carpet.

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Watch the PFD on short final. The altitude tape jerk-updates soooo slowly. I could not live with that :(Hope they can fix it somehow.
Mine doesn't perform like that. Have you purchased the Ariane model? Now that's terrible gauge performance (the FS9 version that is).

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May I ask what you lock your frame rate to? I think most people will be in the 20-30 range, which will result in the gauges behaving like in the video. You'd probably have to be running at 45-60 fps to get them smooth, which is impossible for most.And no, I didn't buy the Ariane version for the same reason :) That one is truly unflyable. Pity, because the vc LOOKS absolutely amazing in the Ariane version.I hope iFly can do something here, the rest of it is so delicious that I would love to have it.

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Yes it does, as per the equation above. Fact.
I have no idea where you got your "fact" from, but it most certainly is not true. I've spent most of the past decade plus doing professional modeling and gauge programming for FS.While it is true that poorly designed VC's will result in subpar performance, the actual cause is quite different from that which you have conjectured:http://forum.avsim.net/topic/294589-question-re-vc-gauge-refresh-rate/

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I have no idea where you got your "fact" from, but it most certainly is not true. I've spent most of the past decade plus doing professional modeling and gauge programming for FS.While it is true that poorly designed VC's will result in subpar performance, the actual cause is quite different from that which you have conjectured:http://forum.avsim.net/topic/294589-question-re-vc-gauge-refresh-rate/
All I know is that I took a VC with 9 VCockpit sections that ran incredibly jerkily, converted it to use 2 sections but added MORE gauges, and now it runs nice and smooth. Because I am limited to 2 1024 x 1024 textures the gauge resolution is a bit less than before, but not bad.

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Guest Aviator999

Don't write off this great aircraft without first trying it. Remember you have a 30 day money back, no questions asked guarantee. Level D has 3 VC entries and I never noticed any issue with it. A lot of people also run their sims over 40 fps these days as well. That's the great thing about running FS9. What I would like to know is where he got this information? I noticed a lot of mention of PMDG in there. Is he out to push the NGX on us and at the same time push us toward FSX which PMDG caters to exclusively with their new addons? I haven't bought it yet as I always read up on things before purchases. I think I now will go to Flight One and buy it to make my own determination on weather this has any truth to it. Can't lose.Regards, Carlos

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