Hi all,Well after being an addict of Flight Simulator since FS98, I have taken the plunge to obtain my wings (PPL).I've got about 3 possible airfields where I can learn to fly so I'm testing each one at the moment.I decided to take an introductory flight at the closest airfield to me.The instructor was in his 50's and was ex RAF... he asked me if I had ever flown before and I told him "No, but I have used Flight Simulators for quite a while so I know what some of the instruments mean, certain parts of the plane" ..... he then quickly responded with "oh you won't learn anything on those....." .... I then told him "just because I've used Flight Simulator for quite a while - I am in no way stating I can fly the plane in real life, just that things like an airspeed indicator, artificial horizon seems familiar to me".... eventually we shut the doors, started the engine and took off in the Cessna 152 - it was awesome!I just thought the comment about simulators was a bit harsh, sure sims like FSX don't always get the realism right but they are very close and surely a flight sim is a massive aid when training for your PPL right? :rolleyes:Dal

What you can very easily learn on Flight Simulator is bad habits. The instructor then has to break those habits.Frankly, sitting on a chair in front of a keyboatrd, screen and joystick all by yourself won't teach you very much about real life flying.

The instructor was probably a very old fashioned guy (RAF) so his comments are quite understandable.But you could tell him next time around there are very famous current aviation educators (Machado, Kings, etc) who very much encourage using FS as another tool to acquire necessary aviation knowledge. FS won't teach you to fly but will teach other important things - instruments, navigation, instrument scan, IFR procedures, etc. It is especially good for those who already fly in real life - no danger of learning 'bad habits'.

yeah I agree - my point was more aimed at the instruments rather than the actual flight simulation itself.Thanks to FS I've been able to understand a bit about navigation, how ADF. VOR/DME works etc...

What you can very easily learn on Flight Simulator is bad habits. The instructor then has to break those habits.Frankly, sitting on a chair in front of a keyboatrd, screen and joystick all by yourself won't teach you very much about real life flying.

I've heard that a lot.............but never really believed it. I just don't see why we automatically have to learn bad habits. At least with a bit of research, it wouldn't have to be bad habits. I also think that flight instructors who still think this, are somewhat un-informed when it comes to desk top simulation.For several years, I've been going to teach my wife, a few of the finer points using flight simulation. She often fly's with me in the real plane. I do think it would help a lot more than hinder, but we just haven't got seriously around to it. However, it would be a case, of me........helping to get away from any supposeable bad habits. L.Adamson

Thanks to FS I've been able to understand a bit about navigation, how ADF. VOR/DME works etc...

Come to think of it.............those three items ARE bad habits! :( A few flight instructors will disagree (and a lot more won't), and there is still some requirements for testing; but GPS for real life, is a lot more pertinent information, although GPS might not be as fun for flight simulation.L.Adamson

I wonder if learning how to drive from Mom and Dad before taking drivers ed. produces bad habits also?

Hi all,Well after being an addict of Flight Simulator since FS98, I have taken the plunge to obtain my wings (PPL).I've got about 3 possible airfields where I can learn to fly so I'm testing each one at the moment.I decided to take an introductory flight at the closest airfield to me.The instructor was in his 50's and was ex RAF... he asked me if I had ever flown before and I told him "No, but I have used Flight Simulators for quite a while so I know what some of the instruments mean, certain parts of the plane" ..... he then quickly responded with "oh you won't learn anything on those....." .... I then told him "just because I've used Flight Simulator for quite a while - I am in no way stating I can fly the plane in real life, just that things like an airspeed indicator, artificial horizon seems familiar to me".... eventually we shut the doors, started the engine and took off in the Cessna 152 - it was awesome!I just thought the comment about simulators was a bit harsh, sure sims like FSX don't always get the realism right but they are very close and surely a flight sim is a massive aid when training for your PPL right? :rolleyes:Dal

Your experience with the RAF guy was probably just because he's an old timer who probably has no idea about the current flight sims and probably thinks your playing some video game.I actually had the opposite from using FS when I started years ago and that was when the sim was no where like what it is now. In fact, when I first started, my instructor at the time commented on how much I already knew with only having had 1 lesson prior. I explained that some of it was from reading a lot of books and some was from using the flight sim on the computer. My instructor assumed that the sim on the computer was a video game, but after I explained what it was he was more understanding but still not sure what I was talking about, mind you this was in the late 80's and stuff like this wasn't as common place as what we have today. The only bad habit that I had from using FS when I first started real world training was that I fixated on the panel too much and didn't look outside as much as I should have. This was quickly fixed after a few hours of real world experience and finding that the a/c wouldn't climb and descend as much as I thought it would without feeling it. That's the only bad part of the sim is not being able to feel what is happening to the a/c.Doing the majority of my training in Apple Valley, CA (KAPV) did give me the advantage of getting some instructors from what was then George AFB, that instructed on the weekends for extra money. I had two instructors who were F-4 pilots in the Wild Weasel squadron who road with me a few times and I will say those guys were pretty strict compared to the civilian instructor I had most of the time. I remember one of them yelling at me to get my eyes out the window instead of buried in the panel. Those military guys really made an impression on me, especially since I was only 15 at the time.Good luck with the rest of your training.

I wonder if learning how to drive from Mom and Dad before taking drivers ed. produces bad habits also?

Having gone through drivers ed over the summer in class and in car on top of learning to drive from parents, yes. They are terrible teachers. Drivers ed is a terrible teacher.Learning the basics and then getting real world application is the best course of teaching.This applies to driving and flying it seems.

What you can very easily learn on Flight Simulator is bad habits. The instructor then has to break those habits.Frankly, sitting on a chair in front of a keyboatrd, screen and joystick all by yourself won't teach you very much about real life flying.

Not really true. It all depends on how you use your flight sim, what you've added to it and how realistically you choose to fly in it. It can be a very valuable tool to aid in flight training or it can be just a sort of complex game - it all depends on how the end user chooses to use it.

............Learning the basics and then getting real world application is the best course of teaching.

Yup! :(

... and how realistically you choose to fly in it...

That's begging the question. How does a newcomer know how to fly realistixally?

Flight sims are bad for learning how to fly, but good for learning how to navigate and perform some procedures.I am using FS now to complement my IFR training, and it's wonderful. Just last night I was flying approaches and holds, trying to stick very closely to what my lessons have consisted of and I was very pleased with the results. Flight sims are a great and economical way to drill in information you pick up in flight lessons.When I was doing my PPL I was having a hard time with crosswind landings. Between two lessons I did about 300 touch and gos on my sim to simulate crosswinds from every direction. When the next lesson came around they came much more easily to me. It was my CFI who told me to do this.

thanks for the great responses so far,its great to see that flight sims are helping many in their training.I think the point about "it depends how you use the sim and what addons you have" really does define what flight simulations can actually offer.As an example, a couple of months ago I purchased the PMDG 747-400 for FSX. It was a massive learning curve, I had to go through a lot of documentation and online vidoes (AoA by PMDG) just to work out how to take off. Eventually I was able to operate the 747 fully and understand the systems.I then came across the Virgin Atlantic 747-400 crew training video - I'd heard a great deal about it and that it was very good. After watching it I was in complete disbelief.... , I had a much greater appreciation for the realism of the PMDG 747-400 - the Virgin Atlantic video discussed the glass cockpit in good detail and the PMDG 747-400 glass cockpit performs very very close to the real thing - of course I discovered in the video there is a heck of lot more to flying the aircraft in terms of takeoff planning etc, but the PMDG 747-400 has given me an excellent introduction to the cockpit workings of the real aircraft - compare this with the default 747-400 which is a bit of a joke in comparison.So addons can really enhance the realism of the sim - hence it shouldn't be judged on it standard out of the box configuration.About a month ago I purchased the cessna 152II from Carenado since I knew this was the plane I would flying in for my trial flight. I had many flights with it in FSX and when I flew the real thing is was just soo suureal, the cockpit was exactly the same layout, same colour even!! - There were small differences such as the radio stack but I instantly knew where everything was, throttle, carb heat, primer etc... The real plane handled really nicely, I got to do some banking turns which were great...There is just one thing FSX failed to simulate..... how damn small the cessna 152 cockpit is in real life....

It is a double-edged sword of an argument. There is no right answer unfortunately because of way too many factors involved to say whether it would help or be beneficial to person A or person B. It really depends on who is using the simulator and what is the end goal. Combining solo simulator use with real world simulator / flying is the best combination and can be very useful. As for the bad habits arguments, simulators can teach/allow bad habit formation to those just learning AND those who have been flying for years. Just because you have a rating doesn't mean you can't learn/develop a bad habit associated with that rating. Curiosity didn't kill the cat, complacency did.John

My instructors seemed to like Flight Sim. My first one told me he'd been on it for 14 years so he was definitely on the 'for' argument. It's good at teaching instruments and procedures, and the basic principles of flight, but when flying a real plane, I try to drop most of my knowledge and apply to proper stuff.The sim helped me understand, but I learned with a fresh mind for real. :D