It comes as no surprise that the airline Air France has rejected the BEA's finding of pilot incompetance!!!The courts will have a field day over this and it is likely that Air France will loose any cases of compensation which could put them out of business! They quote "The crew on duty showed professionalism and stayed committed (to keeping the a/c stalled) until the end to operating the flight. Air France salutes their courage and determination in these extreme conditions," it said. vololiberista http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-14342877

For those who are more interested in understanding what happened rather than grinding personal axes the latest report is here: http://www.bea.aero/...llet2011.en.pdf It doesn't use the word "incompetence".

Wouldn't expect anything else from Mr VC10........... Btw another report with the CVR has been released in french, it sounds like it was chaos all the way down, completeSpatial disorientation.

For those who are more interested in understanding what happened rather than grinding personal axes the latest report is here: http://www.bea.aero/...llet2011.en.pdf It doesn't use the word "incompetence".

Thanks for posting a link to the actual report. At the end of the report the investigators state: "The last recorded values were a vertical speed of -10,912 ft/min, a ground speed of 107 kt, pitch attitude of 16.2 degrees nose-up". That VS is -10,912 fpm * 60 min/hr * 1 / (6,080 ft/nm) = -107 kn, so at that point the AAF447 vertical track was arctan (107 kn / 107 kn) = 45º for an angle of attack = 45º + 16º = 61º !!! Perhaps a factor in the accident is the inherent weakness of force-sensing stick control WRT multi-pilot cockpits requiring CRM in that the PNF doesn't get the visual indication of PF elevator/aileron inputs that the Boenig yoke makes so evident. Final report due out by year's end. Cheers, - jahman.

I believe the Airbus stick is position sensing, not force sensing. Regardless, there isn't any feedback to the non-controlling pilot's stick. scott s..

Don't fly thru level 5 thunder bumpers.

Here's the transcript, and yes they did fight to the last second, I'm not saying they did the right thing but before anyone starts judging them try and put yourself in the situation they where in. It's easy to judge from the warm comfort of your home.... 2 h 10 min 06PF: J’ai les commandesI have the controls 2 h 10 minPF: Ignition startIgnition start 2 h 10 min 11PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ?What's that 2 h 10 min 14PF: On n’a pas une bonne… On n’a pas une bonne annonce de…We don't have a good... we don't have a good indication of ... 2 h 10 min 17PNF: On a perdu les les les vitesses alors… engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrustWe've lost the the the speeds so ... engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust 2 h 10 min 18PF: … de vitesse... of speed 2 h 10 min 22PNF: Alternate law protections (law/low/lo)Alternate law protections (law/low/lo) 2 h 10 min 24PNF: Attends on est en train de perdre…Wait we're losing... 2 h 10 min 25PNF: Wing anti-iceWing anti-ice 2 h 10 min 27 to 2 h 10 min 31PNF: Fais attention à ta vitesse Fais attention à ta vitesseWatch your speed Watch your speed PF: Okay, okay okay je redescendsok ok ok I'm going back down PNF: Tu stabilisesstabilize (could also be, you're stabilizing) PF: OuaisYeaf PNF: Tu redescendsYou're going back down 2 h 10 min 33PNF: Selon les trois tu montes donc tu redescendsAccording to the three you're going up, so you go back down 2 h 10 min 35PF: D’accordAgreed 2 h 10 min 36PNF: T’es à ... RedescendsYou're at ... go back down PF: C’est parti on (re)descendOn our way we're going (back) down 2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46PNF: Je te mets en en A T TI'm putting you in in A T T 2 h 10 min 42PF: On est en ouais on est en climbWe're in yeah we're in climb 2 h 10 min 49PNF: (…) il est où euh ?Uh, where is he? 2 h 10 min 56PF: (TOGA)(TOGA) 2 h 11PNF: Surtout essaie de toucher le moins possible les commandes en en latéral heinAbove all, try to touch the controls as little as possible in in lateral, huh 2 h 11 min 03PF: Je suis en TOGA heinI'm in TOGA, huh 2 h 11 min 06PNF: (…) il vient ou pasIs he coming or not 2 h 11 min 21PF: On a pourtant les moteurs qu’est-ce qui se passe (…) ?We've got the engines after all. what's going on (...)? 2 h 11 min 32PF: (…) je n’ai plus le contrôle de l’avion là J’ai plus du tout le contrôle de l’avionI no longer have control of the plane; I no longer have any control at all of the plane 2 h 11 min 38PNF: Commande à gaucheControls to the left 2 h 11 min 41PF: J’ai l’impression (qu’on a de) la vitesseI have the impression (that we have) the speed 2 h 11 min 43CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ?Hey what are you doing? PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passeWhat's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening 2 h 11 min 52Alors tiens prends prends çaSo here take take that 2 h 11 min 58PF: J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario làI have a problem it's that I no longer have the [vario] there(not sure that "vario" is, here) CAP: D’accordOK PF: J’ai plus aucune indicationI no longer have any indication 2 h 12 min 04 to 2 h 12 min 07PF: J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou non qu’est-ce que vous en pensez ?I have the impression that we have a crazy speed, no, what do you think of it?(in this context, I believe "vitesse de fou" means "very high speed") 2 h 12 min 07PNF: Non surtout ne ne (les) sors pasNo, definitely don't don't extend them(literally, "don't take them out") 2 h 12 min 13PNF: Qu’est-ce que tu en penses qu’est-ce que tu en penses, qu’est-ce qu’il faut faire ?What do you think of it what do you think of it what do we have to do? 2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descendsI don't know we're going down 2 h 12 min 19 to 2 h 12 min 45PF: Là c’est bon là on serait revenu les ailes à plat, non il veut (pas)there that's good we'd be back to wings level, no he (doesn't) wan't to CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secoursWings level ... the horizon the backup horizon PNF: L’horizon (segonde)The horizon 2 h 12 min 26PNF: La vitesse ?The speed? 2 h 12 min 27PNF: Tu montes ... Tu descends descends descends descendsYou're going up ... you're going down go down go down go down 2 h 12 min 30PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ?Am I going down? PNF: DescendsGo down 2 h 12 min 32CAP: Non tu montes làNo you're going up, there 2 h 12 min 33PF: Là je monte okay alors on descendThere I'm going up ok so we're going down (or could be "let's go down") 2 h 12 min 39PF: Okay on est en TOGAok, we're in TOGA 2 h 12 min 42PF: En alti on a quoi là ?In alti[tude] we're at what, here? 2 h 12 min 44CAP: (…) C’est pas possibleIt's not possible 2 h 12 min 45PF: En alti on a quoi ?In alti[tude] we're at what ? 2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04PNF: Comment ça en altitude ?What do you mean in altitude? PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ?yeah yeah yeah i'm going down here, no? PNF: Là tu descends ouiYou're going down here, yes CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontaleshey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level PNF: Mets les ailes horizontalesPut the wings level C’est ce que je cherche à faireThat's what I'm trying to do CAP: Mets les ailes horizontalesPut the wings level 2 h 12 min 59PF: Je suis à fond à… avec du gauchissementI'm at the limit ... to the left CAP: Le palonnierRudder pedals 2 h 13 min 25PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là?What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast? 2 h 13 min 28PNF: Essaye de trouver ce que tu peux faire avec tes commandes là-haut Les primaires et ceteraTry to see what you can do with your controls up there. The primaries etc 2 h 13 min 32PF: au niveau centAt level 100 2 h 13 min 36PF: Neuf mille pieds9000 feet 2 h 13 min 38CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier làEasy with the rudder 2 h 13 min 39PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonteClimb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up") 2 h 13 min 40PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heureBut I'm nose up to the limit since earlier CAP: Non non non ne remonte pasNo no no don't climb back up PNF: Alors descendsGo down, then 2 h 13 min 45PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandesSo give the me controls. The controls to me. PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours heinGo on, you have the controls. We're still in TOGA, ok 2 h 14 min 05CAP: Attention tu cabres làWatch it, you're pitching up PNF: Je cabre ?I'm pitching up? PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille piedsWell, we should, we're at 4000 feet 2 h 14 min 18CAP: Allez tireGo on, pull PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tireGo on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling

...

It shocks me everytime I read it. pitch black, alternate law, trim stuck at full nose up and descending at 10000 fpm with less then 3 minutes to figure it out. Nightmare situation to be in.

I am not going to pontificate from the comfort of my armchair but I would only like to point out these were supposed to be professional pilots, I am just a mere PPL. And they should have been aware of prior major accidents caused basically by pilots pulling on the yoke. Both of their engines were working and their ADIs were working too. I could imagine if they lost their ADIs because this could cause major disorientation. And then common sense should have told them that there is no way that this aircraft would ever fly with this amount of pitch no matter how much they applied.

Yes, Michal, you are "just a mere PPl." So, your "should have been" is worth about, well, you know. Pretty easy, flying that C152, or 210, or whatever, isn't it? I remember my private days well. Fly in good wx, never tired, never sick- yep, pretty easy. Further more, the report stated that they had not been properly trained (no training) in high altitude stalls, nor high altitude hand flying. On the other hand, that's pretty typical. Most company SOP's require pilots to use the automatics except when rotating and flaring, (to keep the statement simple). A number of companies required pilots to show hand flying ability in the sim, but when it was obvious they couldn't, due to company SOP's, the requirements were eliminated. It's usually quite obvious where the final blame will be put, and the prties that will be absolved.db.

Interesting transcript. It seems they were completely disoriented to the point no one realized they were stalled. The part I don't get is why large aircraft don't incorporate an angle of attack indicator, and warning. In the case of AA447, an angle of attack audio warning would have immediately re-oriented the crew to initiate a nose-down stall recovery. AFAIK, since AoA vanes are already installed, displaying a warning on the PFD is just a software mod away. See: The Case for an AoA Indicator. Cheers, - jahman.

I'm pretty sure they had an AoA read out but the way the computers were going crazy and knocking things off line the AoA might have not been reliable.

I don't suppose we could ever know what difference an AoA indicator or alarm could have made in this event, but I wonder if a stall alarm sounds and you don't react to it why you would react to an AoA indicator? It seems to go to the training (or lack of) issue. You also have to consider the "multiple alarms going off at once" confusion factor. Should add that while displaying an AoA indicator might be "just a software mod", the test, documentation, and most importantly training requirements must be factored in as well. Also note that below 60 kts Airbus apparently considers the AoA sensor unreliable. scott s..

AFAIK, PFDs don't display AoA explicitly, but as a limit to pitch. The justification for a separate AoA indicator would be precisely to avoid the AoA indication being ignored because the rest of the indications in the PFD have become unreliable. Did you read the article I included in my post? Cheers, - jahman.