Tom-just two comments.Being accurate about words-I do not consider myself an fsx'er. I actually own and try every sim that is out there. You can look up my past contributions to xplane here on avsim both in scenery and aircraft.Many who are contributing critics are present owners of xplane 10-and I think critics in addition to the praise needs to come out-not only to make it into a better sim presently, but so that consumers can make an informed choice after hearing both the good and bad whether it suits their needs.However it really isn't them against you. If you guys think this is bad you should have seen the critics and open hostility that came out when fsx was released-and that was from "fs'ers" to use your term...and there were lots of things that were not great about fsx, and there were lots of valid critics that even are still made today-and the sim did get better-possibly by the airing of those critics.As for "numbers"-I have made that comment and I'd be glad to give you a few. On the default Baron (or any normally aspirated engine)-you should lose 1 inch of manifold for each thousand feet climbed, at 13,000 ft. In xplane I am getting 27 inches and a 2000 fpm climb rate (27" is the maximum manifold I got at sea level in a b55).. I assume this is a normally aspirated Baron that is modelled? As it stands presently, it is too touchy both in the roll and pitch access and really impossible to trim. Flying vy the nose is pitched way , way to high and the climb rate overly optimistic. Power settings don't produce airspeeds that I expect but since I flew a B55 and not a B58 I'll not get too particular though I have been told they fly pretty much the same.Now-it used to be on prior versions of xplane when I pointed the handling things out I was first told that pilot's prefered this, and then when I identified myself as a pilot that it was a joystick problem. I with great diligence did all the joystick stuff and gave up.On a whim I decided to buy the Carenado F33-and was surprised, amazed, that it handled very closely to the real thing-and this was on xplane 9. There is no twitchiness, roll and pitch rates are reasonable, and I can actually trim it-and it actually responds like the real thing-in fact better than I have experienced on any sim (by the way-the Baron handles pretty much the same). Airspeeds are still a little off and manifold at high altitude is also not right-but I consider this the reason now I am satisfied to leave fsx mostly and move to xplane not only for an aircraft that flies much more believably, but for the other good stuff xplane does that fs does not.I also have been flying ifr 98% of the time the last 22 years and have landings in every continental US state. My problem with the scenery presently is not even so much the lack of urban areas and buildings-but that Los Angeles, Phoenix, Sedona, and Michigan look pretty much all alike (green and suburban). I have also been posting screenshots of the xplane scenery where it is stellar-and it is in lots of places-more than the geography covered by the urban areas. Also as you know, just because you fly ifr doesn't mean you are in ifr conditions-in fact most of the time it is otherwise, and of course one desires a visual at some point. I at least took up flying for the view-and that has never gotten old.Lastly-you made the comment how was flight simming in 1986. As a person simming since 1981 I hear you-flying over some of the stellar stuff in xplane last night I was thinking the same thing.However, it works the other way too. If certain aspects of the sim remind simmers of what they were using in 2004-well that compare is also going to be made-and why not-don't we all want sims to get better?

You know when Propilot was the new kid on the block it's forums at times resembled ww3. Same thing happening again here. It seems anytime a sim (other than MSFS) starts to show some cool stuff a certain few feel the need to try to belittle anything good about it and to try tear it to pieces. And guess what? Others who happen to enjoy the new sim then get defensive. Surprise surprise. It's called human nature.And then they in turn get it next being told they can't accept criticism blah blah blah etc and so on it goes.Sadly I don't see any sign that sniping will stop.

I'll always come back for you Geoff, you're responses are always well written. I don't disagree with you one bit on any of your observations. I even welcome the criticism. What I was pointing out was my take on human psychology and behavior and as I sit back and observe the back and forth communication, I constantly see it degenerate into a really non-productive discussion. Acknowledging human psychology....I will acknowledge that I can't tell you why I care to even comment or get involved, I usually say, "comes with my DNA", but I do and perhaps it's just to pass the time on Saturday mornings while I avoid house work.Anyhow, one thing I did not address was that no matter how or what you say or type or how well you may or may not say it, we simply can't get around the human condition and this type of behavior comes with the DNA and as JasonX said, it won't stop. I totally agree with that and have to remind myself from time to time to simply let it be. Certainly nobody is forcing me to do or say anything and I'm free to enjoy what I enjoy all day long and in the end, xplane will simply attract who it will attract.

This thread was cruising along pretty good with nice, well written posts till Goran went on the defensive.....doing so because m_av expressed his opinion; however, he didn't say it was his opinion until after Goran call him out.

Almost all posts expressed in a public forum are opinions, unless stated otherwise ! e.g. quotes or news items are NOT opinions. Almost always subjective and biased to a degree. Thank goodness for the internet and free websites like AVSIM, that allow us to express our views and opinions, however positive or negative, however biased or unbiased, however subjective or objective. The reader gets to make up his/her own mind whether to agree or not and whether to counter a given post with his/her own. It is still all free speech.Unlike you, I am like many, if not most here, a user, perhaps, an old timer, an FS enthusiast and UNATTACHED AND UNASSOCIATED DIRECTLY WITH THE PRODUCT OR PEOPLE ASSOCIATED WITH LAMINAR, or Microsoft, for that matter.Even you, tkyler, are afforded an opportunity as someone who has a vested interest, to express your viewpoint or opinion as you see fit, within the guidelines set by this website.I have a simple rule - avoid personal or character attacks, concerntrate on the message, NOT THE MESSENGER. That way, it allows me to express my opinion freely, hopefully, with little bias.

All I said was that, given human behavior, what you write has a bearing on what response you get. Clearly I am getting responses based on the words I choose. So if you write something and get a inflamed '######' response that upsets you and then believe it was because that person was unreasonable rather than you did not express yourself sufficiently for that person, then you have to consider that possibility. It doesn't matter what you think a post is or isn't, it only matters what you reap from the post that you sow and how it affects you.I word my posts so that i generally do not get inflamed attacks or responses because I really don't like those, so to me, I mind my words. Doesn't always work, but I'm happy with my yield....but I do understand folks enough to know how to elicit a predictable response...as you are about to see.

Unlike you, I am like many, if not most here, a user, perhaps, an old timer, an FS enthusiast and UNATTACHED AND UNASSOCIATED DIRECTLY WITH THE PRODUCT OR PEOPLE ASSOCIATED WITH LAMINAR, or Microsoft, for that matter.

Ah right....nobody with commercial interests understands their users. Of course...silly me, nobody in business is a fan of the business that they're in and only wants to exploit people for money. When I say that x-plane has no populated airports and needs work, I guess I really mean that xplane has tons of airports and you should buy it. In my opinion..which I am free to express here apparently....and only attacking the message..... Your messages are pathetically written (in my opinion of course) and you are reaping what you sow. Just as I am about to. Isn't this great? For a guy who enjoys psychology, I'm having a great time...practically writing a thesis on forum culture

See m_av it's all your fault that others didn't understand you.

I word my posts so that i generally do not get inflamed attacks or responses because I really don't like those, so to me, I mind my words. Doesn't always work, but I'm happy with my yield.

Pardon me if I take that with a grain of salt, may be a whole pinch. But aren't you the same tkyler that used words and phrases like - and I quote :"1.) He needs to shut his trap or2.) He is ignorant with regards to software development."Here' the link : http://forum.avsim.n...ts/page__st__75for which you later apologised ?Don't get me wrong, your viewpoints/opinions are always welcome, coming from a member who is actually associated with Laminar. But don't take any criticism of Laminar or it's product as something bad altogether. I, too, am an FS and X-plane enthusiast and would love to see Xplane live upto it's full potential - someday.

Yep that was me. and it doesn't always work, but I'm happy with my yield. Wait....didn't I already say that?This is my point.....There is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism. I am sure none of you would deny that. When someone says, "XPlane sucks", that is criticism...and not very constructive. So when you word your criticism thusly, you will get a response. What you say has a bearing on the response you get. You word poorly, then when you get a response, you say, "hey don't take it personal, criticism isn't bad". I just criticized your comprehension above......do you not feel defensive? Have I not derailed the conversation onto an emotional rather than rational level? Could I have not worded in such a mean-spirited way? Certainly, but I'm making a point...or trying anyhow (DOH). I understand there are those here who can't even take constructive criticism but VERY few are good at wording criticism constructively...and they are well respected. What really drives these little spats cannot be addressed. We are on a merry-go-round that has no end where all (mostly faceless) personalities are deemed of equal emotional stability and reasoning but we are all different.That is something I know yet I get on it anyhow for selfish reasons and spin around a few times but then get off. I believe many here don't even know they're on it....they've been on it for 20,000+ revolutions. This was their playground long before I got on and will remain so long after I leave.

You know when Propilot was the new kid on the block it's forums at times resembled ww3. Same thing happening again here. It seems anytime a sim (other than MSFS) starts to show some cool stuff a certain few feel the need to try to belittle anything good about it and to try tear it to pieces. And guess what? Others who happen to enjoy the new sim then get defensive. Surprise surprise. It's called human nature.And then they in turn get it next being told they can't accept criticism blah blah blah etc and so on it goes.Sadly I don't see any sign that sniping will stop.

As a simmer I don't enjoy or unenjoy X-Plane 10. I find it woefully incomplete for the price-point. I find it lacks about 70% of what the default FSX product offered (yes, I'm quite serious). I find it insulting to be told that I'm 'attacking' when in fact I'm stating that if you want my money for something that's newer, it has to offer at least what I already have if not better. X-Plane 10 does not.I really don't care how much you like X-Plane... I'm not buying a thing for you. My purchases are for me. At the current price-point... X-Plane 10 is like purchasing FS 2002 at four times it's retal value. While the type of graphics rendering for X-Plane is far, far superior to FS 2002's rendering... the actual graphics content is not any better. There is far, far too much left out of the base X-Plane product for it to be worth the current 'price-point'. The flight dynamics are worse in many regards, especially when one makes the claims that all is required for accurate flight dynamics is an accurate 3D model. The way the current default aircraft fly in X-Plane leads me to believe a significant portion of the 3D model is flat out missing.I could go on and on and on... but bottom line... for $80, it needs to offer more than any other sim I can currently purchase for less. It doesn't. That has nothing to do with a sim preference, it has to do with basic product placement and marketing.

Below is copy and pasted from this link - http://www.x-plane.c..._certified.htmlThe retail version of X-Plane purchased at X-Plane.com is not certified for flight training right out of the box, since certification requires a software and hardware combination. However, the software available for about $50 at X-Plane.com is almost identical what is found in the $500,000 full-motion FAA-certified platforms. The biggest difference is that the FAA-certified versions have custom aircraft files with larger instrument panels, which are set up to work with hardware radios like those found in the physical cockpits. The FAA-certified version also has some of the purely fun stuff (like Mars and space flight) removed--even though those situations are simulated accurately in X-Plane, just like the FAA-certified subsonic terrestrial flight. When the FAA certifies the first Martian business jet, we'll be there.Really! I'm reading and comprehending correctly that XP-10 retail version meets the above description? Or does it only apply to XP9?

As a simmer I don't enjoy or unenjoy X-Plane 10. I find it woefully incomplete for the price-point. I find it lacks about 70% of what the default FSX product offered (yes, I'm quite serious). I find it insulting to be told that I'm 'attacking' when in fact I'm stating that if you want my money for something that's newer, it has to offer at least what I already have if not better. X-Plane 10 does not.I really don't care how much you like X-Plane... I'm not buying a thing for you. My purchases are for me. At the current price-point... X-Plane 10 is like purchasing FS 2002 at four times it's retal value. While the type of graphics rendering for X-Plane is far, far superior to FS 2002's rendering... the actual graphics content is not any better. There is far, far too much left out of the base X-Plane product for it to be worth the current 'price-point'. The flight dynamics are worse in many regards, especially when one makes the claims that all is required for accurate flight dynamics is an accurate 3D model. The way the current default aircraft fly in X-Plane leads me to believe a significant portion of the 3D model is flat out missing.I could go on and on and on... but bottom line... for $80, it needs to offer more than any other sim I can currently purchase for less. It doesn't. That has nothing to do with a sim preference, it has to do with basic product placement and marketing.

Ed,It's not about how much we like XPX, it's about people's needs and what they are looking for in flight simulation. Your opinion is valid, for your own reasons. You've convinced yourself of it. You don't need to come back and reinforce it every single time someone comes out of the blue, compelled to convince others of his reasoning. Fly whatever you enjoy.By the way, give us a break with the 80 bucks, that's chump change if you calculate the countless hours you will put it to use. I suggest you read Geoff's post just below the OP, it outlines the primary reasons why we're here.

Below is copy and pasted from this link - http://www.x-plane.c..._certified.htmlThe retail version of X-Plane purchased at X-Plane.com is not certified for flight training right out of the box, since certification requires a software and hardware combination. However, the software available for about $50 at X-Plane.com is almost identical what is found in the $500,000 full-motion FAA-certified platforms. The biggest difference is that the FAA-certified versions have custom aircraft files with larger instrument panels, which are set up to work with hardware radios like those found in the physical cockpits. The FAA-certified version also has some of the purely fun stuff (like Mars and space flight) removed--even though those situations are simulated accurately in X-Plane, just like the FAA-certified subsonic terrestrial flight. When the FAA certifies the first Martian business jet, we'll be there.Really! I'm reading and comprehending correctly that XP-10 retail version meets the above description? Or does it only apply to XP9?

No software (no matter what company) is either certified or not certified 'out of the box' by the FAA. It's the hardware/software combination that obtains certification, after rigorous testing by the FAA. Microsoft ESP (FSX), Lockheed-Martin Prepar3D, as well as X-Plane 9 have been used in FAA-certified simulators. So, in answer to your question... it would be a yes... be it FSX (ESP is FSX for commercial use), Lockheed-Martin's Prepar3D or Laminar Research's X-Plane... the software is essentially the same as that being used in FAA-certified training systems.

Ed,It's not about how much we like XPX, it's about people's needs and what they are looking for in flight simulation. Your opinion is valid, for your own reasons. You've convinced yourself of it. You don't need to come back and reinforce it every single time someone comes out of the blue, compelled to convince others of his reasoning. Fly whatever you enjoy.

This is exactly the behavior I was referring to. My concerns and desires... dismissed... Essentially told to 'go away'. This is the X-Plane 'community' that has always baffled me. So, I want something of value... and because I want that... and I ask it of X-Plane... I'm told to 'take a hike'.

By the way, give us a break with the 80 bucks, that's chump change if you calculate the countless hours you will put it to use. I suggest you read Geoff's post just below the OP, it outlines the primary reasons why we're here.

Nothing is chump change. It's my money. As for "why we're here"... I'm part of the "we" in that statement... despite your desire to dismiss me.

I keep hearing that XPlane is a 'work in progress'. For $80, it is fairly logical that most customers of FS9/X would expect XPlane to at least meet the same level of product 'completeness' as FS9/X offers 'out of the box'. It does not...

This is exactly what Tom was talking about. You say, definitively, "It does not." Well, I disagree. I think XP10's out of the box experience is at least as good as FSX out of the box.. And I say "at least as good" not to say that they have the same strengths but that they have different but equal strengths. I just think we could use a better sense of perspective around here, but people don't seem keen on discussing things, they're more interested in seeing their favorite sim "win".

This is exactly the behavior I was referring to. My concerns and desires... dismissed... Essentially told to 'go away'. This is the X-Plane 'community' that has always baffled me. So, I want something of value... and because I want that... and I ask it of X-Plane... I'm told to 'take a hike'.

Now, that's pure fabulation. You've never expressed concerns or desires pertaining to XPX, only vehement criticisms.

I would tend to agree with Ed.For $80, give me a sim that has some resemblence to reality, plausible ain't cutting it ! Don't give me a Space Needle that may be an architectural or artistic masterpiece while a Brooklyn Bridge that's a stretch, forget closeness or even remote resemblence to reality.Most, if not all of Manhattan covered in water, may be plausible, given global warming, but hardly bears any resemblence to reality today ! Lets give the word "plausible" a rest, shall we ?The irony in all this is, X-plane has the ingredients, had them in v9 and If I may say so, had them even in v8, but they chose to reinvent the wheel, fix something that wasn't broken, seemingly made it worse, added some night lighting, some additional effects and other improvements so they could call it a different version, charge again and charge more.Offer the community some decent tools - but that would distract from the newer more lucrative versions ! Laminar EXPECTS the community to develop and offer what you develop to be included in future updates and versions - for free for the most part.A previledge - all for US $80 - out of your pocket.What a deal !