Well the OWS folks seem to think so.... :(

While the crux of this topic is worth discussing, and a discussion of markets is inherently tied to politics, slipping that politically-charged quip in there is arguably distasteful and smacks of trouble-making.

While the crux of this topic is worth discussing, and a discussion of markets is inherently tied to politics, slipping that politically-charged quip in there is arguably distasteful and smacks of trouble-making.

As does yours and the OP's. Why would you take such offense at what is patently obvious... :( The facts of the matter are that no "other party" has a right to force a capitalist entity into supplying "other party" desires at no cost. Such is, at least in some quarters, lunacy. :(

I don't know fully, but I would assume it is based off of release date. The MD-11 has been out of PMDG for awhile (longer at least than the NGX), so they have probably recouped most of their expenses already, whereas the NGX is relatively new. It is the same way with any consumer electronics, or goods for that matter, when they first come out they are high priced, but after time they start to come down. I know the money I spent on the PMDG MD-11 was well spent (same with the money for their JS41), and I am looking forward to dropping that $70 to get the NGX 737. Great aircraft! Yes, they are both excellent. Agree 100%.Yous should try RW flying lessons in a twin turbo-prop! ROTFL!Ooh! Yes! Big $$$$Forum Rule #1: Don't feed the trollsNot bashing anyone. I recommend you read the topic before making such a immature comment like that."Hosting and Bandwitch do not cost that much. I have a website that gets 3,000 views a month, and it costs about $100 a year to keep it running."Really? Try paying for the bandwidth and hardware necessary to develop and publish a single 200MB aircraft, being downloaded at one per minute.From your comments it's quite apparent that you also have no idea of the qualifications and skills required to create and publish an application, nor the business know-how needed to run a profitable company. Any normal IT developer with a modest resume will earn anywhere from U$60,000 to U$140,000 per year - and often higher as their skills overlap into databases and consulting. $2,000 per day is a "normal" fee. Ask any Flight sim guy if they make those dollars and they will look at you as if you have two heads.Why thank you for your rude words of wisdom. Obviously, if a company was THAT POPULAR to be hosting SO MANY airplanes, and having THAT MANY downloads per minute, the profit coming in from ads and donations would offset and PAY FOR MOST OF THE BANDWIDTH. And I do have knowledge of that, I build websites for small companies, and $2,000 a day is UNLIKELY.And where is your proof for your estimates? :(

He is talking about the cost itself, not the offset. Also, since when did a developer thrive on adds and donations? I personally would not want to work for a company that depended on such an inconsistent source of profit, would you invest hundreds of hours just to depend on donations? PMDG, Aerosoft, and CS succeed for a reason!

Those are mostly the old Sun 480's, Jahman, pretty good for their day, but now being replaced with M5000's.http://www.glcomp.co.../m-series/m5000

How much would one of those things cost to put up?

The way I see it, people who pirate stuff aren't going to buy it anyway.

I just want to comment on this particular idea because it's something I've witnessed firsthand here and I don't believe it's true. When the MD-11 was released it was cracked/pirated almost instantly and it did not sell well by our standards - we saw torrents immediately that had many thousands of people on them.With the J41 and NGX we used a much more robust protection scheme that is much harder to crack - we saw much better sales as a result than we did with the MD-11. Some have argued that the MD-11 isn't in real world use very much, is "old" etc and thus there was no interest in it - all the same things apply to the J41 though and it's been a great seller. No interest also doesn't explain the huge torrent usage we saw - there was a lot of interest but people could get it for free right away by stealing it. We'd see people on VATSIM flying it who were not in the customer database - those were some interesting private message conversations... What's different with the J41 and NGX is that people buy it and start raving about it, but then the people who would normally pirate can't get it for free right away. We think a lot of them eventually break down and buy it just because they don't want to wait - everyone's flying it, it's the new big thing and they can't have it. There's certainly a hardcore group of pirates out there who flat-out will never pay for anything, but those aren't really the ones any software company is concerned with. It's the casual pirates we pick up sales from when they're not able to steal quickly after a release.On top of all of this though, we believe in producing something that people will genuinely want to buy - I think most simmers can see how much work we put into a product like the NGX and want to buy it so that we have the resources to make our next one and so on. We try to produce things that are so good that people think twice before stealing them - that extends to everything we do, support included.As to the original subject of the thread - the problem is that good addons take an inordinate amount of resources to produce. To ask someone to devote the amount of time to a freeware project that it takes to produce something like the NGX is just not feasible unless the people involved were independently wealthy or something. There's certainly some amazing freeware out there and we should all profusely thank those people who do it, but the idea that the whole addon industry could be freeware is just not realistic at all. It takes resources to make good things.

While the crux of this topic is worth discussing, and a discussion of markets is inherently tied to politics, slipping that politically-charged quip in there is arguably distasteful and smacks of trouble-making.

Your opinion...certainly not mine,however...Lou

Hi Ryan,Your one line remark below sums it up (at least for me) very nicely.

We believe in producing something that people will genuinely want to buy - I think most simmers can see how much work we put into a product like the NGX and want to buy it so that we have the resources to make our next one and so on.

Paul J, on 03 January 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:Those are mostly the old Sun 480's, Jahman, pretty good for their day, but now being replaced with M5000's.How much would one of those things cost to put up?Ben B.

Going off topic, I know, but in answer to Ben's question, and as a broader add-on to the "developing an addon" vis-a-vis the "cost of IT services", I'll expand on it a little...(Actually the purple/mauve boxes are 490's, Ben, not 480's). I'm getting old.The cost depends upon a number of things: who you are: i.e. Industry; Government; Education; as there is a different pricing structure for each of those. How many do you need? New or refurb? How you want it configured, i.e. how many procs, how much memory, how many power supplies, what nic(s) do you need and maybe two drives - or not, as in our case they connect and boot from a SAN; who will install and configure it, plus a maintenance contract. An average price, paid perhaps eight years ago - approximately $45,000 - $70,000 for the 490, 4 procs, 32 gigs memory - SCSI drives at $1000 - $2000 each, with dual fibre connection to a SAN. A fibre SAN, eight shelves, with 14 x 300 GB per shelf - two fibre switches, two controllers, the rack and power supplies - another $180,000. That's a single prioduction database server without the cost of Oracle database licensing. Normally one would have at least two servers using some kind of failover method in a production environment, plus an identical backup site. Did I mention backup? I also haven't mentioned the development servers that might be in use 24/7, the web servers for the web interface, nor the (Cisco) connectivity equipment, and their separate support. The M5000's are a much newer solution, costing upwards (from my memory of (two years ago) of $,000. On top of this are the folks needed to run the system, 24/7/52.Enough - I'm (re)tired and bored already!

As does yours and the OP's. Why would you take such offense at what is patently obvious... :rolleyes:The facts of the matter are that no "other party" has a right to force a capitalist entity into supplying "other party" desires at no cost. Such is, at least in some quarters, lunacy. :(

You can't resist the bait... All I asked is that you refrain from juxtaposing with political polemic, I never voiced any opinion on the matter of current events other than to ask that you not ###### in the pool...

I just want to comment on this particular idea because it's something I've witnessed firsthand here and I don't believe it's true. When the MD-11 was released it was cracked/pirated almost instantly and it did not sell well by our standards - we saw torrents immediately that had many thousands of people on them.With the J41 and NGX we used a much more robust protection scheme that is much harder to crack - we saw much better sales as a result than we did with the MD-11. Some have argued that the MD-11 isn't in real world use very much, is "old" etc and thus there was no interest in it - all the same things apply to the J41 though and it's been a great seller. No interest also doesn't explain the huge torrent usage we saw - there was a lot of interest but people could get it for free right away by stealing it. We'd see people on VATSIM flying it who were not in the customer database - those were some interesting private message conversations... What's different with the J41 and NGX is that people buy it and start raving about it, but then the people who would normally pirate can't get it for free right away. We think a lot of them eventually break down and buy it just because they don't want to wait - everyone's flying it, it's the new big thing and they can't have it. There's certainly a hardcore group of pirates out there who flat-out will never pay for anything, but those aren't really the ones any software company is concerned with. It's the casual pirates we pick up sales from when they're not able to steal quickly after a release.On top of all of this though, we believe in producing something that people will genuinely want to buy - I think most simmers can see how much work we put into a product like the NGX and want to buy it so that we have the resources to make our next one and so on. We try to produce things that are so good that people think twice before stealing them - that extends to everything we do, support included.As to the original subject of the thread - the problem is that good addons take an inordinate amount of resources to produce. To ask someone to devote the amount of time to a freeware project that it takes to produce something like the NGX is just not feasible unless the people involved were independently wealthy or something. There's certainly some amazing freeware out there and we should all profusely thank those people who do it, but the idea that the whole addon industry could be freeware is just not realistic at all. It takes resources to make good things.

Ryan,Very well put! As a happy owner (a true paying owner) of your MD-11 and JS41 products I have ZERO qualms with putting money on your future products. Well done and keep up the excellent work over there at PMDG!

You can't resist the bait... All I asked is that you refrain from juxtaposing with political polemic, I never voiced any opinion on the matter of current events other than to ask that you not ###### in the pool...

Pardon me, didn't realize I was stepping on your "politically correct" toes. Rub some salve on 'em and they'll heal right up. :(

Pardon me, didn't realize I was stepping on your "politically correct" toes. Rub some salve on 'em and they'll heal right up. :(

It is not my place to pardon you as we are bound by AVSIM's Terms of Use. You history of causing trouble in this forum speaks for itself and your propensity to be disrespectful is prominently on display. All these things are fine if the moderator deems it so. However you demerit list must be pretty long given how many threads are locked on account of your inflammations. This disrespectful attitude lost me as a customer long, long ago.

Edited January 3, 201214 yr by ahuimanu

100's of hours to do a freeware project more like 1000's of hours for payware. Not to mention ongoing support. What is the common answer to freeware support issues? If you have a problem or dont like it dont complain to me you got it for a good price. The old adage rings true you get what you pay for.

With the J41 and NGX we used a much more robust protection scheme that is much harder to crack - we saw much better sales as a result than we did with the MD-11. Some have argued that the MD-11 isn't in real world use very much, is "old" etc and thus there was no interest in it - all the same things apply to the J41 though and it's been a great seller...

I have no doubt piracy had an ill effect on the MD11's sales, but I think this conclusion is too simplistic.The J41 is almost half the price of the MD11 was, that 'had' to make a difference.Regards.Ernie.

It is not my place to pardon you as we are bound by AVSIM's Terms of Use. You history of causing trouble in this forum speaks for itself and your propensity to be disrespectful is prominently on display. All these things are fine if the moderator deems it so. However you demerit list must be pretty long given how many threads are locked on account of your inflammations. This disrespectful attitude lost me as a customer long, long ago.

OT. but imagine the disrespectful customer comments... I've seen all of them...

It is not my place to pardon you as we are bound by AVSIM's Terms of Use. You history of causing trouble in this forum speaks for itself and your propensity to be disrespectful is prominently on display. All these things are fine if the moderator deems it so. However you demerit list must be pretty long given how many threads are locked on account of your inflammations. This disrespectful attitude lost me as a customer long, long ago.

It is true that it is not your place to pardon me anymore than it is to speculate on what you may deem a demerit list.Please understand that we believe that customers are free to make purchase choices as adults and we never pressure anyone about their choices.It really is fine with us if you've chosen to pass on our products. The hobby should be enjoyed in whatever manner you choose. :(

OT. but imagine the disrespectful customer comments... I've seen all of them...

Ha ha, not as many as we and fellow devs have. :(