:D c'mon guys. We are early Beta and OF COURSE what Ben and Austin do is - not only, but also - doomed to be "trial and error" in parts.Beta 10 = error.

No, you are missing a very fundamental part of the software development process:In some cases it is very important to find things that don't work! That's the difference between the knowledge of the developersand the source code itself. The existing source code is only the path that is used at the moment. The developer knows the parts that don't work and where interconnection points for new features might be.But normally you don't want to try such things in front of a customer who doesn't want to test this now.As Werner von Braun said: It is only a failure if we were unable to retrieve data.

Edited January 9, 201214 yr by Longranger

don't kid me. I'm in the middle of development processes daily in my job. Not as the developer, but the one arguing for features and the like. So I know what distinguishes real arguments from wishful thinking and plain errors or oversight. Of course it is trial and error some of the time for some of the stuff. and herby I personally set my mind up in anticipation of beta 11 and am out of this debate.

Going back to the bigger picture...It's almost like Laminar Reseach is applying some sort of "survival of the fittest" Darwinian experiment against X-Plane users. Those users who are most tolerant with how they operate their business are the most likely to remain loyal customers. Over time, people intolerant to it will peel away to other options, some who just tolerate it will do just that, and hardened survivors will start to defend the method as being an effective, if not superior, method for releasing and maintaining a simulator.How many new users were turned off by the demo's state of scenery, state of airplanes, or state of performance, and will not be seen until the demo of XP11? How many users bought X-Plane 10 in advance and now find themselves waiting (*or perhaps flying) in the dark for days, weeks, or perhaps months to have it rise to meet their expectations or the expectations set by the marketing materials?Problems will happen with updates - things will break by accident on occasion. In the case of XP10, there are so many things on the list for repair or completion, new and experienced users alike are all left wondering what is next. To that end, you are right to point out that XP10 probably needs a proper beta branch to let willing users test the bleeding edge, and let more casual users enjoy a stable platform... but you need a reasonably complete and solid starting point to make that happen. It's clear to me that by continuing to push all updates to everyone, Laminar doesn't feel like they've reached that plateau... which kind of begs the question, why is the product on the market in the first place?A published timeline or roadmap for the work needed on incomplete or broken items might be the difference for people like me to buy on faith that our concerns will be addressed. It would also mean publicaly "fessing up" to the current shortcomings, which is probably a corporate and marketingfear which overrides the potential for slipped dates and changing priorities.Those of us looking for roadmaps aren't seeking it for "enhancements" and new features, we're looking to see that existing items are finished and stabilized! (*For me, it's the scenery items which are not yet complete) For what it's worth - If the timeline is going to contain so many components in need of completion and/or repair so as to make it unwise to publish, it begs the same question once again, "why is the product on the market in the first place?" Although XP10 is clearly not unflyable, there exists enough unfinished business and testing with the simulator to have comfortably delayed release by a month or more.Again - return to the power of first impressions - a new user will receive their DVD's, spend a day installing them, run the online updaters, and see who-knows-what with potential CTD's and apparently funky clouds, nevermind the condition of places like New York City. Hopefully their patience is as generous as their wallets are, as they just shelled out $ for a product which could be argued to be still in testing and incomplete.X-Plane 10 has a lot going for it out of the box, but it has even more sitting on the sidelines waiting to be completed. I strongly feel that Laminar Research could have blown the doors off the simulation world if they had only waited to release this product when it was finished (from a content and general stability perspective) rather than with so many seemingly half-baked parts. It's that roadmap to completion that some of us are now seeking considering that XP10 is now on sale.-Greg

It's clear to me that by continuing to push all updates to everyone, Laminar doesn't feel like they've reached that plateau... which kind of begs the question, why is the product on the market in the first place?

Tradition :(

The only thing that stays is a guy called m_av who has no respect for the people behind this and their community.

NOT QUITE, NOT EVEN CLOSE ! Let's stay focused on the issue, shall we ?What remains is the hundreds or perhaps thousands of customers with an as yet buggy and incomplete product that Laminar in it's infinite wisdom decided to release prematurely and sell, AT FULL PRICE, NO LESS, with no hint /admission upfront, that IT IS AN INCOMPLETE, BUGGY, BETA PRODUCT.

Edited January 9, 201214 yr by m_av

Surely you realize by now that you have zero credibility here.

ROADMAP= it will get done when it's done.

X-Plane 10 has a lot going for it out of the box, but it has even more sitting on the sidelines waiting to be completed. I strongly feel that Laminar Research could have blown the doors off the simulation world if they had only waited to release this product when it was finished (from a content and general stability perspective) rather than with so many seemingly half-baked parts. It's that roadmap to completion that some of us are now seeking considering that XP10 is now on sale.

I don't think that it is quite as simple. It is obvious that it was time for a beta release!Why? You need access to a huge number of platforms to detect as many hardware dependencies as possible!

It is obvious that it was time for a beta release! Why? You need access to a huge number of platforms to detect as many hardware dependencies as possible!

I will agree with that wholeheartedly, so long as the release is advertised as such, which wasn't the case here with XP10.Many companies have released a true beta demo for free just for that purpose, or even sold beta code with the clear indications that it is beta (such as Minecraft). Selling something of beta-quality as production without informing your customers is poor form on its face, doubly so if it was done with the purpose of testing the product against a wider base of users.Had Laminar released only the demo to the masses, called it a beta, and solicited testing input from the community, we wouldn't be having these discussions. There would be a lot less pressure to fix the bugs, more time to finish incomplete items, and the whole experience would be better for all involved.What's done is done though, so now all we can do is hope that all ends up as it should be in the shortest time possible.-Greg

I don't think that it is quite as simple. It is obvious that it was time for a beta release!Why? You need access to a huge number of platforms to detect as many hardware dependencies as possible!

I think that it is in a state which is fair enough for a beta release. Why in the hell don't they update their marketing so people know they are buying a beta product. It's just so misleading to market it as a finished product. There is not one online retailer selling it that's says it is beta, nor does LR. It tells me that they are trying to get copies in the hands of people who would not normally buy a beta.

ROADMAP= it will get done when it's done.

I think you are right so much as it is not done and internally they don't have one, it's not that they are not telling us what it is. It's day by day for them. It's called the cowboy development method. It has many storage nuansices like don't test the windows executables because we run macs.

Edited January 9, 201214 yr by JasonHarris

I think that it is in a state which is fair enough for a beta release. Why in the hell don't they update their marketing so people know they are buying a beta product. It's just so misleading to market it as a finished product. There is not one online retailer selling it that's says it is beta, nor does LR.

Well, I can't argue about this, since I am an Aerosoft customer, and they made it clear that the current version is only a preliminary release. Instead they now publish a date for a finished version for the 16th of February, also I don't think that they will maintain this release date, at least I hope that they won't try to force this issue.

Actually, I believe they DO have an internal roadmap. It just isn't something that needs to be put out to the public.I know from my personal experiences with XPlane it does get worked out in the end. So I for one am not worried about this or that, or a roadmap explaining this or that.It's all water under the bridge, complaining about a roadmap isn't going to get anything done one way or the other.Bottom line is there's a Demo you can try for free, if you like what you see you buy and wait for the updates, if you don't like it, move on.

It's that roadmap to completion that some of us are now seeking considering that XP10 is now on sale.

Like Woweezowee has stated it's a tradition, this is X-Plane not MSFS!

Most developers don't make their "road maps" public for a number of valid reasons.

Most developers don't make their "road maps" public for a number of valid reasons.

I think for the same reasons LR should not have done so many interviews saying what will be in xplane when they are not.

You obviously don't know much about software development on such a scale.There is no timeline that hold's till the ink is dry!So why should they publish a timeline when everyone knows, that it is not valid.They are deep in its beta stage. Every Blog entry proves this, as clearly as the fact that they disabled the betaversion check fo4r updates at this time.They hope that every Beta will be better than the previous version.As we so after Beta 7 this is not allways true. Sometimes you fix something in the background but this small change has severe consequences in other parts of the program. There is np way to avoid such things except testing, testing and testing.I think they will now make a feature freeze for 10.3 and try to reach a more or less stable version 10.3 and to start with a 10.4 beta branch .They are in dire need of a beta branch with a stable branch in the background.

I think you are wrong here .. there is always a timeline. Any professionally run business operates with a timeline. I am not sure what example you are using stating that software developers dont use a timeline.