Greed? Sure, it is the way the world works. We do, afterall, live in the age of scarcity. If you're not willing to play the game things get tough real quick.To me at least the direction Orbx is moving is clear enough. They are going commercial at full speed ahead. Think LM's P3D, the Australian military, all in an Orbx-esque world. As an off-the-top-of-my-head example. These types of scenarios are very expensive (lawyers, contract guarantees etc), they are very sensitive, and they are as far away from retail as one can get. Discussions of why on the Orbx forums are to be avoided at all costs. And so they are. If Orbx could tell us the why then they would have done so.At the end of the day the majority of us here will buy the Orbx addons we want in the future. It's hardly like we can get something similar elsewhere, is it? Those into grudges will perhaps not buy an addon they otherwise might have, but they will be a minority.

Is it not exactly what happened between Orbx and MS about a new release on 2/29/2012? Who's not welling to play the game?FSX and Orbx is not the end of the world, I myself have no grudges agains Orbx, none what so ever, I wish them the best but you can count me in the minority.

To me at least the direction Orbx is moving is clear enough. They are going commercial at full speed ahead. Think LM's P3D, the Australian military, all in an Orbx-esque world. As an off-the-top-of-my-head example. These types of scenarios are very expensive (lawyers, contract guarantees etc), they are very sensitive, and they are as far away from retail as one can get. Discussions of why on the Orbx forums are to be avoided at all costs. And so they are. If Orbx could tell us the why then they would have done so.At the end of the day the majority of us here will buy the Orbx addons we want in the future. It's hardly like we can get something similar elsewhere, is it? Those into grudges will perhaps not buy an addon they otherwise might have, but they will be a minority.

Wow!This reads like a carefully constructed "forward leaning" guidance statement designed for nervous shareholder consumption. Incredible! If what you say is true, then contrary to all appearances and known facts, ORBX is run with the best of near mythical level of business craftsmanship ever to have achieved success. Even more amazing is that it has done so by reversing just about every known successful marketing principle ever taught, including the ones that worked for them since their beginning.Can you imagine? The pinnacle of power is achievable by clever masquerade! Don't think so. Such characterization of recent obvious public missteps as merely being methodical parts of a brilliant pre-planned business maneuver designed and implemented to take over their intended world is transparently ridiculous. The far more likely truth is that such an imaginative "forward leaning" statement is but skillfully crafted spin to try to convince some who need convincing, to stay convinced. It is far better strategy to admit mistakes, make amends and move on by not making the same mistakes ever again, thereby breaking the pattern. Come on now! We who wish ORBX well hope that they will rise above any recent difficulties and take advantage of any markets they may be able to create in retail or commercial, or both. However, hiding behind fantasy and wishing upon a star won't do it, never has and never will.Kind regards,

Very well said Stephen.

It is a rather odd view of the holiday's best ever 'Tell it like it is!" event, isn't it.

If what you say is true, then contrary to all appearances and known facts, ORBX is run with the best of near mythical level of business craftsmanship ever to have achieved success. Even more amazing is that it has done so by reversing just about every known successful marketing principle ever taught, including the ones that worked for them since their beginning.

Both could be true at once. In other words, if a company decides to shift its emphasis - say, for the sake of argument, from consumer products to business-to-business products - it might be apt to take its eye off the ball and make missteps in the consumer sector, which suddenly isn't as important to it. The missteps might be harmful but might not be as consequential to the business as an outsider might assume.My own take is and has always been a bit different. I think what started the slide into the December/January controversy was a sort of runaway mechanism. It works like this: an engineering-driven (not marketing-driven) company ramps up its staff and drastically increases its production. It jams a lot of new product into the fourth quarter, more than it's ever released before in such a concentrated period, maybe more than the marketplace can comfortably absorb (IOW, customers who were once completists now hesitate, because there's a lot of cash required all at once to buy in; sales might suffer a bit). There are, predictably, technical problems and delays with some of the products. Tensions go up, people get a little on edge. Without anyone's quite realizing it's happening - remember, this is not a marketing-driven company - the delays cause one long-established promotion (the prepay sale) to run into another (the holiday sale). Customers are upset and get vocal about it. The company already feels under siege and now feels blindsided - they were distracted with other things (technical issues, maybe the development of new business-to-business products) and never saw this problem coming. They could react in any number of ways - explain, apologize, arrange some kind of redress like a future discount. Instead they lash out and customer relationships get worse.I'm not saying any of this happened here. But I have seen this movie before in other settings. One lesson is that the initial misstep usually isn't malicious and usually isn't something that the company is focused on. Another lesson is that the response after the initial misstep matters much more than whatever went wrong in the first place.But if the underlying reality is that the company no longer cares so much about the offended customer base because those customers are no longer the main focus, that might make it more likely that the company's response is indifferent or even hostile.So what I'm saying is that a company could be changing its business plan, and could - partly as a result of that, and partly as a result of other missteps - blunder its way into damaging its customer relationships. Not conspiracy, just things getting out of control.

Edited February 16, 201214 yr by Alan_A

I agree Alan,A stumble leads to a trip that leads to a fall that leads to a pile-on cascade effect. It is possible that ORBX has some real potential or realized commercial market redirection, at least I would hope so. A whole lot less likely is that such recent public missteps was a part of a larger clever marketing ploy, as was suggested, but progression of a previously displayed weakness.Kind regards,

 

the response after the initial misstep matters much more than whatever went wrong in the first place.Not conspiracy, just things getting out of control.

+1Things have been wrong 'at Orbx' for years already (I had my first very bad experience back in 2009) but things have gotten worse at the end of 2011. I do think P3D is partially the cause of the rapid decline (if that's the right expression). The idea of selling something for a few thousands of dollars what you'd normally sell for 35 dollars would make a lot of men greedy. Specially if what you sell is done and finished already. You only have to cash in! Also being called the best scenery developer (well, publisher, really) for a long time, can do things to someone's head. Some people can't cope with these kind of things. That's it. But as I said, it's not something new: it's been there all the time, only now more people notice it. No conspiracy or anything, just things getting out of control indeed.

Edited February 16, 201214 yr by J van E

The idea of selling something for a few thousands of dollars what you'd normally sell for 35 dollars would make a lot of men greedy.

Or it just makes business sense. I know in my own business - a consultancy - products that create recurrent revenue are a lot more attractive than hourly billing. In the latter case, I need to work every hour to generate each hour's worth of income. In the former case, it's "write once, run anytime" - I create a little module (like a tool to diagnose a client's situation) and can charge clients for each use, but don't have to recreate the module each time. So I put a lot of emphasis into creating those modules. In my case I don't abandon hourly billing - that creates other kinds of value (I get to meet people, I get to participate in real-world situations and learn new things). So I try to strike a balance, but it isn't easy.If I were developing complex software products, I'd much rather develop them for a professional environment - revenue is much higher, there are fewer customers, and the customers are easier to deal with. Less friction, more profit. I'd hope that I could make the transition from consumer to professional with a minimum of breakage. But that's easy to say from where I sit. Breakage happens and again, you don't always see it coming.Better not to make the breakage worse by subsequent actions, though, if you can avoid it.

+1Things have been wrong 'at Orbx' for years already (I had my first very bad experience back in 2009) but things have gotten worse at the end of 2011. I do think P3D is partially the cause of the rapid decline (if that's the right expression). The idea of selling something for a few thousands of dollars what you'd normally sell for 35 dollars would make a lot of men greedy. Specially if what you sell is done and finished already. You only have to cash in! Also being called the best scenery developer (well, publisher, really) for a long time, can do things to someone's head. Some people can't cope with these kind of things. That's it. But as I said, it's not something new: it's been there all the time, only now more people notice it. No conspiracy or anything, just things getting out of control indeed.

I think your reading to much into this.As Jeroen says its been going on a long time and the first big one that made me sit up was the hardware forum being taken down.Then the forums got a hammering with deleted posted etc, then the "discount" at Christmas.Then the "we are doing it like this in 2012" post.Followed by people getting banned left right and center and now the once great "pilots Lounge" forum you cannot even post the new A2A XXX is out etc. So just what is left there now?Sorry It's no conspiracy or anything IMO it's just one mans ego and success gone to his/her :( head /wink. Who is sick of..in his words his wining customers.

Edited February 16, 201214 yr by NyxxUK

There are lots of good minds at work in this thread! Impressive! :Applause:Kind regards,

There are lots of good minds at work in this thread! Impressive! :Applause:Kind regards,

:(

Edited February 17, 201214 yr by Rockliffe

A whole lot less likely is that such recent public missteps was a part of a larger clever marketing ploy, as was suggested, but progression of a previously displayed weakness.

I certainly did not suggest that this whole affair is some clever marketing ploy. Indeed from a retail marketing and public relations point of view it was, and still is, being handled rather poorly. My point is that Orbx is likely not in a position to now explain themselves and set the record straight as this would require discussing issues which have nothing to do with their retail operations. Such discussions, as much as they would help ease tensions with some retail customers, would likely create all sorts of problems on the commercial side of things. It is not rocket science to see who Orbx would rather keep happy by simply keeping their mouths shut and making sure that their forums remain sterile.As usual, all the above remains pure speculation on my part.

:(

+1

I certainly did not suggest that this whole affair is some clever marketing ploy. Indeed from a retail marketing and public relations point of view it was, and still is, being handled rather poorly. My point is that Orbx is likely not in a position to now explain themselves and set the record straight as this would require discussing issues which have nothing to do with their retail operations. Such discussions, as much as they would help ease tensions with some retail customers, would likely create all sorts of problems on the commercial side of things. It is not rocket science to see who Orbx would rather keep happy by simply keeping their mouths shut and making sure that their forums remain sterile.As usual, all the above remains pure speculation on my part.

If your speculation is right, I take my hat of to you.

@Sharrow -Interesting thoughts - definitely worth keeping an eye on. I can't myself imagine what the commercial arrangement would be - partnership or joint venture or acquisition or what have you - that would compel a company to whipsaw its retail customers on pricing, berate them when they complain, then start banning them by the dozen. All of that drama is purely on the retail side and I'm having trouble seeing how different pricing or communications policies would affect a business-to-business relationship. If anything, a commercial partner would probably want things running smoothly in the retail business - why would you want more to manage when you could have less? But it's a big, compliated world out there and all kinds of things are possible. It'll be interesting to see what plays out.