How was I giving you "all" a bum rap?? I was talking about those three specific posts.

 

I am on my 7th airliner and have approx 10000 hours of airline flight time and this is my 4th airline and hopefully the last :) . So Id like to think I know a little bit about the profession. I just think its so absurd that a 17 year old virtual pilot is sitting here telling everyone that working conditions are SO much better in Europe than they are here.

 

Alright, so how about an 18,000 hour pilot, who fly's both European and to the State's? IMHO, Europe is a better working environment for pilots, of course T&C's have declined in the past 20 years since the advent of LOCO's, but we don't have the like's of the American regional airlines. Even on some of the lowest salaries of first officers here in Europe they can still afford their to have their own residence, and not the style of "crash-pads" that has erupted among young regional airline pilots in the states. Even on how pilot's are treated over here by their company [bar Ryanair, and a few other disgraces to the name of Capitalism]. Just look at what happened to the pensions of the AA pilots just a few months back, totally wiped out.

 

Just my €0.02

Captain Rónán O Cadhain.

I kinda envision myself working more with flight service vs being the pilot, I like to fly for fun but not so sure if I would enjoy it as a job.

 

That is precisely how it is supposed to work. You do what YOU want to do for a career..... whatever you think will make you happy is all that matters. I never give advice such as "go to med school" "go to lawyer school" simply because I have flown with a number of doctors and lawyers who got the flying bug and changed careers. Its funny to listen to them talk about their former careers as they will bash it incessantly. If they paid me 1 million a year to be lawer I would tell them to get lost personally id be freakin miserable. You dont shatter some kids dream of being an airline pilot because YOU dont think it would be good for him/her. You tell them the goods and the bads and let them make their own choice. For me there has been very little bad and its all I ever hoped it would be.

 

Alright, so how about an 18,000 hour pilot, who fly's both European and to the State's? IMHO, Europe is a better working environment for pilots, of course T&C's have declined in the past 20 years since the advent of LOCO's, but we don't have the like's of the American regional airlines. Even on some of the lowest salaries of first officers here in Europe they can still afford their to have their own residence, and not the style of "crash-pads" that has erupted among young regional airline pilots in the states. Even on how pilot's are treated over here by their company [bar Ryanair, and a few other disgraces to the name of Capitalism]. Just look at what happened to the pensions of the AA pilots just a few months back, totally wiped out.

 

Just my €0.02

Captain Rónán O Cadhain.

 

##### is a loco and T&C...speak english man!!!!! :)

 

Regional airlines are not all bad. In ANY profession you are going to start at the bottom so why should the airlines be any different??? I spent 5 years at a regional and the first year as a Brasilia FO I made 12000 dollars..... my wife and I were just as happy then as we are now, we had a nice little apartment and life was good just a couple of years later my pay went to 42000 a year and we bought a house. I had 15-20 days off a month and life was good, 4 years after getting hired I was an ATR captain making 75000 a year which for us was a ton of money at the time. So for me it is hard to grasp when people bash this or that its everything I expected and more. If one plans on becoming an airline pilot and doesnt do the research and know what he/she is getting into before they make that huge leap they deserve to be miserable when they find out its not what "they" hoped it would be.

Just to chime in from a student pilot perspective,

 

I personally think it's rediculous to have to pay so much money to be a civilian pilot. If a company wants a certain technical employee, it should be up to that company to train you to use the specific equipment they use, especially when training costs exceed the average yearly income of an American Household.*

 

The insane price tag didn't stop me from collecting ratings, though. But to get 250 flight hours on your own just to start getting paid to fly is a steep request from companies around the world. 250 hours for a Commercial and CFI will cost you, out of pocket, about $35,000 when all is said and done. With most companies (soon to be legally required) offering small-time jobs flying single-engine aircraft to pilots with 1,500 hours or above, a pilot who fails to CFI for 1,250 flight hours will pay - out of pocket - $195,000.

 

It is extremely difficult for an intelligent person to argue that buying a $30,000/year job for the pricetag of $195,000 is a good deal. Quite frankly, it isn't a good deal, and in the end the monetary expense goes a long way to keeping aviation away from the general public at large.

 

I am getting fairly close to the point where I can send resumes out, but when I look back I can't help but ask if I'd do it all again. I always thought being a pilot took a lot of studying and hard work and meeting the right people; It does, but it also takes deep pockets.

 

-Disclaimer: *Just an opinion. I'm sure some people have found a lot less expensive methods for getting into the right seat.

Geez...For guys who handle the saftey of 400 people riding in the big airbourne cattle truck you "RW Pilot" guys loose your cool pretty easily....what do you do when a bird takes a dump on your windshield? Have a pink fit I presume?

That is precisely how it is supposed to work. You do what YOU want to do for a career..... whatever you think will make you happy is all that matters. I never give advice such as "go to med school" "go to lawyer school" simply because I have flown with a number of doctors and lawyers who got the flying bug and changed careers. Its funny to listen to them talk about their former careers as they will bash it incessantly. If they paid me 1 million a year to be lawer I would tell them to get lost personally id be freakin miserable. You dont shatter some kids dream of being an airline pilot because YOU dont think it would be good for him/her. You tell them the goods and the bads and let them make their own choice. For me there has been very little bad and its all I ever hoped it would be.

 

Not saying its a bad career and no one should do it but I like the fact that I don't have to sink a huge amount of money to be a flight attendant and then start working at low pay with huge expenses to pay off, plus it would be a good to get a degree in something other than flying because furlough always happen even in the good old days.

Geez...For guys who handle the saftey of 400 people riding in the big airbourne cattle truck you "RW Pilot" guys loose your cool pretty easily....what do you do when a bird takes a dump on your windshield? Have a pink fit I presume?

 

Typically in that scenario we call in fatigued and go home.

Westair I understand what you are saying thats a huge amount to pay for flight training and I cant relate because I probably only paid 18000 dollars total for my flying back in the 90's by dumping lavs and pumping gas while in college. But here is another way to look at that, how I would look at it anyhow. Right now a 40 year old first officer at SW airlines will earn around 5.5 million dollars if he/she flies from 40 to 65 years old at current pay rates and that is only flying the average trip hours, not busting your butt by flying extra trips. Thats not BS that is a very realistic number. You would see similar numbers now at Delta with their new contract and perhaps United although not quite as high. Now say that same 40 year old FO spent $150k on education and flying............you see where im going with this???

No. I'd be a millionaire flying my own aircraft on the weekends.

Several pilots I know at majors would tell you that the flying itself is great and they still love it but that they absolutely hate the business and political side of it. They've been run through the wringer so many times now with contract disputes, bankruptcies that took away retirement pensions and investments, being put on reserve status after 25+ years etc - the list is pretty endless unfortunately. And then yeah, the stuff with starting out today is just ridiculous - you're almost below the poverty line at some of the regionals - many regional pilots have to work second and third jobs while not flying just to make ends meet.

my first job up in the air was flying a cessna 208 for a total of 11k that year . That was over 9 years ago and yes i also had a second job at the time for the extra money and to pay the loans that till not too long ago i was making payments on .

the loans sometimes dont ever end .

...and here's where the truth comes out and I like to put it this way:

If you're unsure, save yourself the money, get a sport pilots license, enjoy it on the weekend and stay the [heck] out of my way. I can't tell you how many times I would run into some kid who got his dad to pay for his training, who had shiny jet syndrome, and made it into a paid flying gig and just complained non-stop about it. Few jobs are great from the very beginning, but if you really hate it that much, get out and make room for those who want it.

 

It a rewarding job. Heck, it's a rewarding hobby even if you don't want to treat it as a job. Granted, it's an expensive hobby, but it's a rewarding one nonetheless. If you think it's what you want to do, don't let anyone tell you not to. No one person's experience will be exactly the same. It's not easy, but if you're meant for it, it's not too terribly hard, either.

 

 

 

Summary:

Go for it, but be sure you really want it.

 

 

 

Geez...For guys who handle the saftey of 400 people riding in the big airbourne cattle truck you "RW Pilot" guys loose your cool pretty easily....what do you do when a bird takes a dump on your windshield? Have a pink fit I presume?

 

You go put in thousands of your own money and then have someone call it easy, or take a stab at your career, or similar. You're bound to be upset by that.

...but its the Internet....

 

 

If you get upset by some random rubbish on a forum then I am sorry to say but you are a little princess and need to sprinkle some concrete on your cornflakes and harden up

 

Your 50k spent on the atpl is nothing compared to what I spent on a race car...which I sold for 1500 bucks.....not long ago

 

I don't get paid to race...you get paid to fly...so once again.,.you have it easy when it comes to doing what you enjoy

 

 

...but its the Internet....

 

 

If you get upset by some random rubbish on a forum then I am sorry to say but you are a little princess and need to sprinkle some concrete on your cornflakes and harden up

 

Your 50k spent on the atpl is nothing compared to what I spent on a race car...which I sold for 1500 bucks.....not long ago

 

I don't get paid to race...you get paid to fly...so once again.,.you have it easy when it comes to doing what you enjoy

 

...and there's my point. 50k for an ATPL? How about doing a little research before you start throwing out your (misguided) opinions? Some people don't get paid to fly at all. Even so, you can't get paid to fly until you've made a significant investment.

 

By the way, you certainly can get paid to race. I'm not sure if you're aware of that fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Two

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Three

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Four

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_car_racing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nascar

 

With the last one in that list, I'm pretty sure you'd get a fist to the face if you belittled their investment and career choice, especially if you were talking to Kevin Harvick.

 

There are plenty of smaller series that you can get paid for winnings, as well.

Facepalm.jpg

 

Nah never heard of those, cause you know I just live in my own little world and never bothered to pull my head out of my &@($*....oh wait I'm talking about me here, not you.

 

 

I'm mates with mark webbers family and they live 10mins up the road, been on track with some of Australia's best drivers

 

Those guys have invested millions over the years

 

Ps lol at Wikipedia links makes your argument seem silly

 

 

And let's face it, I'm sure a lot of people don't understand Motorsport or the fact that people use cars for more than taking the kids to school

 

Just like people think being a commercial pilot is easy

 

But out of all the commercial pilots out there being paid to fly compared to those who earn a living in Motorsport I'd hedge my bets on pilots out numbering paid race drivers/riders by a long way.

 

I won $30 and a crap trophy once....after $2000 on a set of tyres $500 on a set of front brake pads

$250 on entry fees $150 for a pit lane garage.

 

Ontop of a 10,000 buck engine, 5-6k on suspension, 10k on safety gear

Breakages, buying the car, tuning etc etc

Plus fuel, transport costs, accommodation etc etc and all that for 2x6 lap races and a 10 lap race.

 

Each lap is around 1:04 secs

 

You add it up on cost per hour for an average ie: non race winning tin top

 

Planes are expensive yes, cars are worse, least with pilots licences and in particular major airlines the pilots don't have to pay to replace things as they fail/wear out lol

 

Paid pro drivers don't (unless they own the team) but they have all been where I am for most of their career

Ps lol at Wikipedia links makes your argument seem silly

 

Despite the assumption (illogically and in an uneducated sense) that wikipedia is not credible, peoples' dismissal of it shows how misguided they really are.

 

What's more credible: wikipedia or an encyclopedia?

You'd imagine that it's the latter, but in all actuality wikipedia has more peer review that most encyclopedias. Further, all one needs to do is look down at the sources to see whether or not the assertions are credible, but it seems you're a little too flippant and lazy to accomplish that.

 

I won $30 and a crap trophy once....after $2000 on a set of tyres $500 on a set of front brake pads

$250 on entry fees $150 for a pit lane garage.

 

Ontop of a 10,000 buck engine, 5-6k on suspension, 10k on safety gear

Breakages, buying the car, tuning etc etc

Plus fuel, transport costs, accommodation etc etc and all that for 2x6 lap races and a 10 lap race.

 

Then you're doing it wrong. If you're in it for the money, you need to figure out how to make it worth the money you're putting into it. If you're not, stop comparing it to a real job. You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

I'm not sure if you're trying to get a rise out of me or not, but in either case it really doesn't matter. I'm always up for a good debate.

 

 

 

You may want to have a look here, as well:

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/245586-you-must-sign-your-full-real-name-to-posts-to-use-this-forum-posts-without-names-will-be-deleted/