Zach, a word of advice... You seem to mistake what people say about *themselves* as a statement about you. If you feel that your CPL is a big achievement for you, then it is (and I agree, heck my PPL was one of the highlights of my life!). Try not to take it all so personally.And I dont think anyone here would trivialize the achievement of woking an airline for a living! It may not be as financially rewarding as it deserves, but the position is hugely respected, particularly in this community.Regards,G

Edited February 3, 201214 yr by gmohr

Put it this way, went to college for 3 hears and got my commercial IFR and float, upon graduating, i bailed out kf the industry, Hknestly, food stamps isnt what i wanted, and yes its true, ykur at the poverty level, the cook at mcdonalds would he making more then you at first. Its a very long hard road, and to me, i wanted a house, a newer vehicle, get into motorcycling, raising my daughter and making sure i could afford pizza day for her at school, and this was all acheived by 23 years old, had i chosen the pilot path, i figure probablu be 45 years old before seeing all that, heck the rate im going, my house will he paid by 45 years old.However, its probably the best job one can have, when times are good.Definetly not for me unfortunatly, so ill keep simming, while earning a decebt living.

Yeah, I was making more watching the people who loaded bags onto the plane, than the pilots did in some cases when I was a ramp sup for a ground handler at IAD for a year.Part of the problem is that this is a dream career for some, and for those who share that dream, stick with it. Just know that the airline management knows you'd do almost anything for the job, including taking crap pay.

Edited February 3, 201214 yr by scandinavian13

what's better then office at 36000ft? now seriously which other job would you like?

Edited February 3, 201214 yr by Daniel choen

what's better then office at 36000ft? now seriously which other job would you like?

Theres many good career out there, that pay!! Unfortunatly, as said above, managment knows that if you as a pilot wont take the low pay, there are 400 others behind you that will.... its a very bad way of doing things but its the way it is.

I wanted to be a pilot once... then I took an arrow in the knee! :) (skyrim anyone?)I'm working on my CPL and I am optimistic about the future.-There is going to be a lot of retirees in the near future-Regional positions in Canada appear to be better than in US. Avoiding the Hub and Spoke system helps (being placed anywhere and everywhere at the same time)-There are charter/private options for building good time other than regionalsFor contrast, my wife is just finishing her masters in Urban Planning and volunteering is the name of the game in the beginning. That's right- not making instant $, but working for free!There are no easy good jobs, you put your time in and you put up with different BS one way or another. At the end of the day, I want to do something I enjoy doing at the very root of it. When you do something you love from the onset, work is still work, but it's much easier to get by the negatives.Big houses and sports car are nice, but there are bigger problems in the world than me not living an American dream, and those people still manage to be happy. I strongly believe that if you aren't happy today, no houses or cars in the world will fix it in the future. That's just my philosophy. So might as well do what you love.

Speaking of Soviet Canuckistan...Anyone still watching Ice Pilots?I heard (Audrey?) the French Canadian girl gave up after 3 years slavery on the ramp at Buffalo to become a Flight Attendant at Westjet, essentially putting an end to her flying career since there is no way she'll ever transition from FA to pilot at Westjet.Is this true?

First off, how long you work on the ramp varies from company to company. In hard times when pilots aren't moving on to the "better" jobs it can take awhile. And, if no one has noticed we are in hard economic signs. Also, as to whether this young lady will move from being a flight attendent straight to the flight deck with minimal experience......think about it. Also, people are hiring. Time spent working the ramp is decreasing. There's no guarantee the ramp wwill lead to the cockpit. In this business, like most others, it's about being in the right place at the right time. Audry getting out of Yellowknife to Calgary for whatever reason is a good move. SHe'll have a chance to make more contacts. Also, as a FA at a major airline she'll be talking to the flight crews and they more often than not: 1. Know who's hiring, 2. May have contacts and can put in a good word if she does a good job as a FA, 3. She may even have access to a little sim time.....the list could go on.Vteckick.....you are right on with your comments about your wife getting a start. My ex-wife is a lawyer..... at the beginning she did 4 years of undergrad, 3 years of law school, one year of articling, and then the better part of a year of bar admission course and for all that the only job she found, which she took, started at $18k/year working more than 40 hours a week with no pay for overtime. Eventually as she got experience she did well. Like most jobs....Flying is a great way to make a living.

Bryan, there has been a lot of silly things posted about a profession from those not in that profession, but this must be one of the most ridiculous in this thread:

His job is almost identical to that of an airline pilot, the only difference is his machine operates on water instead of up in the air.Would the Captain of a ferry boat compare himself to a doctor?

You equate airline flying to driving a ferry, how ridiculous. Not that driving a ferry is ridiculous, but it is hardly the same. Sure, it shares some things in common, but doesn't everything? Using your logic, I guess a butcher's job is the same as a doctor's because they both slice flesh with knives and get blood on their clothes. Again, quite a ridiculous comparison made to illustrate my point.Me thinks you have a big chip on your shoulder bud. So you gave up on what you wanted to do, but you should not be bitter about it. Especially since your hobby entails flying an airliner that is as real as it gets. Be true to yourself and proud of your achievement, no-one can take that away from you except you alone.I hope you are not a member of the "entitlement" generation that thinks good things should just fall on your lap. As mentioned in your example, why should the chief pilot be impressed with a 250hr pilot when they show up at his doorstep? 250hrs is nothing when it comes to experience, but it is something we all had to go through, nothing wrong with that. You think a student fresh out of medical school walks right into the best paying jobs he will ever see? At that stage you are a dime a dozen, it is up to you to climb above the others that have succeeded in achieving what is hard but not impossible.

And again although a pilot does have that accountability much of that accountability is mitigated away today with technology, systems, procedures and atc etc. hence why the change from the 50s and 60s view of pilots. So yes a pilot could(and do) make errors that kill people, but I can do that driving my car down the motorway. So things like a pilot selecting a wrong level(simple human error) actually can't be done nowadays, atc have mode s and software which would detect that, and procedures, read backs, cockpit crm etc all mitigate the risk out, hence why flying such a safe industry.

So what is first obvious in your post is how little you know about being a pilot. You clearly think that technology is there to save you. Obviously you have never been part of an airline that has an FDAP (flight data analysis program) structure. I can guarantee you that in a medium organization, such as the one I work for today, has at least 10 to 20 altitude busts every month. Yes, technology has helped to prevent some of these or at least prevent the outcome from being worse (i.e., TCAS), but this is still very much a possibility. Sometimes, ATC makes a mistake themselves, have you considered that? Sometimes people are distracted you know. There is also the very common problem of language and thick accents you understand.You compare the damage you could make driving down the highway, which is just ridiculous. Yeah, you jumping in a car and intentionally trying to kill someone would probably yield loss of life, but that is not the same as a pilot accidentally causing loss of life from incompetence or inability. I can assure you the day someone builds a bus that can carry 400 people at 85% the speed of sound that they will be a little more picky about who they choose to operate it.So again, unless you know of what you are speaking of, then you are simply farting from the mouth. I could not get on here and say how easy it is to develop an aircraft like the NGX because I have never attempted to do just that. How stupid would it be for me to get on here and say how easy it would be having never tried it myself? I've painted a few AI aircraft, so therefore developing something like the NGX must be easy, right? Ridiculous, the two do not compare. And I would hope the community would put me in my place if I made such a claim.

Mariano, you have saved me a boatload (pun intended) of typing, thank you :-)

I really don't think pilots and doctors can be compared, I think someone hit it on the head the market sets salaries along with the ability to source the staff.I take nothing away from anyone's job or career and how hard they work, or have had to train to get to that position. Accountability and responsibility also comes into the equation. And again although a pilot does have that accountability much of that accountability is mitigated away today with technology, systems, procedures and atc etc. hence why the change from the 50s and 60s view of pilots. So yes a pilot could(and do) make errors that kill people, but I can do that driving my car down the motorway. So things like a pilot selecting a wrong level(simple human error) actually can't be done nowadays, atc have mode s and software which would detect that, and procedures, read backs, cockpit crm etc all mitigate the risk out, hence why flying such a safe industry.But there no way you can compare the accountability, training, responsibility, of a pilot to a doctor. Quite simply the thing that sets them apart is that given enough money you can "buy" your way into being a airline pilot, no amount of money will give you a licence to be a practicing doctor. Not saying anyone could be a pilot but far easier to do so than to become a doctor.

James,With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. I work with a fellow pilot who abandoned med school because of the costs. It is true that with enough money you can train until you are proficient to pass a checkride, however the time, work, and money required to advance from private pilot to Airline Transport Pilot is immense. Here are some numbers as of 2009: A total of 594,285 pilots in the U.S. we have a population of about 307,006,550.

• 72,280 student pilots
• 234 recreational pilots
• 3,248 sport pilots
• 211,619 private pilots
• 125,738 commercial pilots
• 144,600 airline transport pilots
• 21,268 glider-only pilots
• 15,298 rotorcraft-(helicopter)-only pilots

An ATP is the closest we have to a "doctor" certainly by that time, we've spent just as much time in the classroom and had about a dozen oral and practical evaluations just for additional certifications, not to mention a separate checkride for each aircraft we fly over 12,500lbs max gross weight. Plus we get a checkride very six months for pilot in command or sim sessions and a check ride every year for first officers. In addition to that we get a medical review every six months if we want to keep flying passengers. Bottom line thats about 600,000 pilots of which 144,000 are ATP's for over 300,000,000 people in the US. Compared to 661,400 physicians and surgeons in the US. And the only reason there is not more physicians, thank your American Medical Association. We don't have an organization trying to keep pilots out, in fact we struggle to get people interested in flying.Now to your discussion of safety, if you ask any human factors engineer they will say that flight deck automation has increased safety, this is 100% correct. However, what is not included is the fact that automation is a necessity and an offset to the increasingly complicated airspace, the increasing number of aircraft in a given area (i.e. Chicago, they just keep laying concrete down) and most importantly a smaller cockpit crew (remember flight engineers). I hope this sheds a little light.Cheers,Todd

I'm sorry after 17 years in aviation safety, one thing I've learnt is egos and safety do not go together. I have admiration for any person who is successful in their career path regardless of money earnt from it. Personal success is far more important than what is viewed by society or bank balance. That said having read the many opinions on this post, it's shocking to see that so many pilots view them selves as having studied, trained, paid,or worked harder than a doctor, that they feel their profession is on par with the skill, dedication and aptitude needed to be a doctor, that they should be on a equal or better salary than a dr.I earn more than most pilots, and in fact have more lives in my hands each day than anyone pilot, am capable of making catostophic mistakes, that could have potential to kill thousands. Like pilots, my profession is changing all the time, and the human error factor is being engineered out with strict procedures and technology. I am proud of what I have achieved personally in my career, and feel I have worked hard, I require far more stringent checks than any commercial airline pilot does to retain my license. BUT...at no single time do I think I am any better than a doctor, that I should be earning that salary, or considered in the same regard as one.In response to the ill considered posts about safety, yes level busts, airspace infringements, unstable approaches, piggy back go arounds, incorrect plans, decisions, runway excursions, procedural errors, non compliance are errors seen every day, committed by atc and pilots alike, it's why safety management systems, procedures, rules, technology etc are becoming more and more part of the industry, some of those human errors will remain, but slowly the risk associated with them is mitigated out, Swiss cheese model! Being able to make an error and the consequences of it, doesn't warrant you get paid more or are more deserving of a accolade of hero. Hence my comment about driving down the motorway, it's not about me deliberate wishing to cause carnage as I do, but fact that I can easily make a human error whilst driving, be distracted, misjudge something, or not follow a rule etc, and the consequences of killing someone is there, the difference being in aviation is that more is done to remove that consequence, some to remove the chance of the error, but mainly to mitigate against the consequence of the error, so yes level busts still occur, and yes all the holes in the cheese can still line up to cause a mid air, but trm on board the cockpit, rt standards(read backs etc) efps, mode s, tcas, atc procedures, stca, mtca, ifacts, are all there to remove the risk associated with the human error that occurred. And it's that very reason that being a pilot, atc, etc has less risk, and possibly less skill or aptitude needed to do those jobs, that combined with market forces is why salaries are falling.Many people and even some research as shown that the level of automation could even be a risk in itself, as it deskills people and results them in being unable to react or use natural flare to control a unusual situation, but it's a chicken and egg situation, the level of skill needed to operate within the industries as become less, as economic drivers have resulted in it becoming easier to get into the industry, so the caliber of people, perhaps that natural gift to do it, is less, which results in more tech needed to patch up these people, but that results in less chance of the skill being developed or retained.I love flying, I love the industry. Most of my friends are pilots, engineers, ATCOs, or related to aviation safety. But the whole point of this rambling is quite simply, some peoples egos here are actually a concern that they feel they are something above the rest, because they have a set of wings and a bit of braid on there suit. The majority of people I've experienced with an ego that large are often the ones who eventually end up having some form of incident.

James,With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. I work with a fellow pilot who abandoned med school because of the costs. Cheers,Todd

So he choose something easier to do? Your opening statement basically flawed the rest of your argument?Followed by your statistics, which how does having less pilots than doctors state that they should be paid more? Do we have to compare undertakers, ballet dancers etc too?Your list of checks, exams, and oral boards, wasn't that exhaustive either, an ATCO does more, and a doctor probably does more in first year of school than that. My friend is just about to embark on a cadetship with a major carrier in just over year and a half, they will be flying people around the globe as a fo, I don't think I'll be hearing off any of my friends saying that in just over a year and half they will be performing a triple heart bypass, or removing part of someone's brain, or operating on a baby with a hole in their heart.I take nothing away from those who embark in a career in flying, and have greatest admiration for the hard work, training, studying and financial commitment they will make to achieve their wings, I'll be first to congratulate me friend when they qualify, and will be very proud of them for that, but can we have a sense check here, pilots are quite simply no where close to being a doctor, the emotional, physical, mental, challenges of being a doctor alone simply blow an hour on a sim check out of the water.

My friend is just about to embark on a cadetship with a major carrier in just over year and a half, they will be flying people around the globe as a fo, I don't think I'll be hearing off any of my friends saying that in just over a year and half they will be performing a triple heart bypass, or removing part of someone's brain, or operating on a baby with a hole in their heart.

The friend you're describing is most likely part of an ab initio training program that screens applicant and accepts those with very high aptitude. Many airlines throughout the world are using this type of program because it is becoming increasingly difficult to find pilots. To the best of my knowledge, British Airways, Swiss Air, Air France, Korean Air, and Air China use these programs (I'm not 100% sure of the status of these programs at these airlines, it's been a while since I've been involved with training).Please understand, the vast majority of current airline pilots do not look at the pilots coming out of these programs as having the same skill-set as those who went a more traditional route of building experience before finding themselves in the right seat of an airliner. Keeping in step with the doctor analogy, these First Officers are in the same place as an intern. Interns get to practice medice, but with significant oversight. Surgical interns do bypasses, etc. while being supervised. They don't get their own operating room until years later. Just like those First Officers won't get their own plane (ie, become Captain) for many years. Ab initio pilots and intern doctors still need to build experience.Your comparsion neglects other steps in the process. I had a flight attendant who became visibly upset when she heard that I spend 3 months in indoc training at my airline before being put out on the line. Her problem was that she spent 2 months in training to become a flight attendant, and had the misconception that I learned everything I know about flying a plane in my indoc training. So, she thought that she could've just spend one more month in training and been a pilot. She was completely unaware that I had been flying planes for about 15 years before I came to this airline.The comparison between different jobs is difficult at best (as this thread clearly demonstrates). My two cents: a doctor does some amazing things on the human body - one body at a time. A pilot - in today's modern cockpit - largely monitors the flights progress, and is primarily there to take over when a situation reaches the point that the systems can no longer produce the best result. That being said, a pilot does still hold numerous lives in his/her had on every flight. Even on a clear vfr day, a pilot's mistake has the potential to become catastrophic (there are air safety accident reports to back this up). In most scenarios, a doctor is not putting his life on the line when he practices medicine, but every time a pilot flies a plane he is putting his/her life on the line: in the US, the captain has to sign the flight release before the plane leaves the gate. That signature is his/her affirmation that he is familiar with all aspects of the proposed flight, and believes that he can safely and legally perform the entire flight as planned. If a doctor fails performing a bypass the patient dies, and the doctor may face discipline and litigation (if the failure was due to the doctors' incompentence, etc.). If a pilot fails, the pilot may very well be the first one to die.Risk vs. reward. Pilots shoulder some pretty high risks, and the rewards are rapidly deminishing. I still say find another profession, and fly for fun.Read Ernest K. Gann's Fate is the Hunter. In his career, he saw about a third of his fellow pilots die in aviation accidents. Admittedly his airline career started in 1938, and things are safer now. But there are still huge risks. Anyone involved in highly automated cockpits will attest that automation can be a great tool, but in certain scenarios it can actually be a large part of the problem. In a CRJ, 2 seconds after a TCAS RA (resolution advisory that requires manuevering to avoid imminent collision with another aircraft), the autopilot disconnects.Your pilots are responsible for your safe travels.

Edited February 4, 201214 yr by ccarter06

With the number of doctor caused deaths (250,000 in US alone) annually, I think I would rather have a pilot operating on me!