....When there is an "autopilot" for doctors then we can talk....Again pilots do have a job with a huge amount of responsibility and pay at many airlines is abysmal. But doctors earn every penny.

You'd be surprised.

I really want to be a commercial pilot, but as already stated, it is not what it used to be. Here is my plan....i am currently 16 working on my PPL, once i graduate high school i plan on going to the ohio state university to major in aerospace engineering and minor in aviation. Hopefully i can land an internship/job with netjets and work my way up and "get to know people." Once i get my degrees and necessary ratings i can flight instruct for a while then join a regional for a little bit until i have enough hours to fly for netjets. OR i can use my degree in engineering to possibly get a more stable, better paying job with an aircraft manufacturing company etc. what do you guys think?

Yay go Aerospace Engineering! :) As I said before I'm perfectly happy staying in engineering / research, however my advice to you would be to follow your plan, and make sure you complete your degree. It will help you understand more about the theory of flight, which will probably make some parts of learning to fly easier (emphasis on the some). An aerospace engineering degree can also help open the door to certain flying jobs (e.g. technical check pilot or test pilot) if that's your thing. It will also provide a solid back-up plan, as unlike the pilot shortage, the engineering shortage is very real (at least on this side of the pond). Most of my friends who've graduated had already signed on for their first job before holding their thesis defense (and I mean real job, not flipping burgers to pay for uni).In short, if you have a passion for aviation and enjoy engineering (i.e. maths & science) go for your plan. When you reach the end of your degree you will still have the freedom to decide whether you want to go for being a pilot (especially if you get some of the 'lower' licenses during your study) or want to go into engineering.

With all respect, I'm not being a smart alec! I did read the post, and I responded appropriately as far as I'm concerned. I challenge you to re-read my post. Again, personal minimums are very much a part of professional flying. My point is that at a professional level, personal minimums are going to be lower, skill higher, decision making better. In theory.

In practice refusing an aircraft too often (even if perfectly in line with regulations, company minima, etc) will put your name right on top of the list of candidates for the next round of lay-offs, which would leave you with no income, a house, a car and training to pay off and a family to feed. Of course a professional pilot should always choose safety over career prospects, and I have the utmost respect for those with the personal integrity to do so, but I'm not going to blame those who are merely human.Especially in bad economic times, with a tight job market, managers can exert an awful lot of pressure. If I were a pilot, would I say: 'no, I refuse to fly on a plane with 2 inop slides, I don't care if you fire me' or would I say: 'well, if I do my job properly we won't need those slides anyway, and even if we do planes are certified to be evacuated with a percentage of the doors inoperative'. I'd like to think I'd choose the first, but I think it would be arrogant to make any claims until I was actually put in that position (with a family of dependants to feed).

Edited February 2, 201214 yr by japascoe

In response to this. As you insinuated, commercial pilots going "above and beyond personal minimums and acceptable risks."Not that that isn't an issue in the business. But it shouldn't be if the pilot in question displays good ADM.

In all of this, I was referring to my personal stance on flying based on somebody else's minimums, and a commercial pilot's need to adhere to the standards put to them. CP's do not enjoy the freedom to simply not go that day, for any reason whatsoever. It wouldn't take much of this to get you fired in *any* job. If your personal no-go criteria is more strict than the company's/government's/etc, you are stuck, and you arent a good candidate for flying for a living. Nobody should take this as criticism of CP's in any way, quite the contrary.Having said all that, the notion that no CP ever succumb to go pressure from their company when the regs/SOP said hold is just not credible.Regards,George

Edited February 2, 201214 yr by gmohr

Again pilots do have a job with a huge amount of responsibility and pay at many airlines is abysmal. But doctors earn every penny.

You would be surprised at how few ATPs there are in the world. Only a fraction of the amount of doctors. It really is a very small club. I think both professions require a lot of dedication and hard work. Keep in mind that the autopilot is just a tool, one of the many which we manage to get the job done. And it has the potential to turn things pear-shaped at lightning fast speed, trust me on that. The jobs are very different, but incompetence is everywhere. In fact, I think it is probably more prevalent in medicine simply because it is more of a need than flying, I just don't think it grabs headlines as much as aircraft accidents do. You kill or severely maim a couple people because you faked your medical license and you might make the local news at best.As far as "commercial pressure", 99% of it is self induced. You even see it with individuals at the private level, where I think it might be even more of a hazard. You've surely heard of get-there-itis? When you are flipping the bill and operating the aircraft your judgement is very pressured by your wallet. As strictly an operator, I don't have to worry about how much it will cost, to some degree.I've worked for 4 airlines in my career and I can honestly tell you that I have never felt pressure to do something I was not comfortable with - and I don't consider myself a cowboy by any means. A lot of guys build things up in their mind and it can cloud their judgement as to the order of priorities. It is easy to spot these guys, they are the ones that think there is a different answer to the age old pilot interview question of "what do you do when your Captain takes you below minimums". And these are the guys that don't get the job as a result.Now I understand if as a private pilot you choose to not fly on a day you don't have to. That is perfectly fine, every professional knows their limits and sticks to them. I guess I see your point, you are flying purely for pleasure, I might be flying because it is my job. But I don't look at that as a lowering of standards. Over the years I have accumulated the necessary training that makes me feel quite comfortable flying in conditions which someone that flies only once in a while doesn't.I guess that was my point. And if I am not comfortable, then very simple, I don't do it. This doesn't always mean I am not going. Most of the time it just means the plan changes slightly. In aviation, like medicine, there are so many ways to skin a cat that there are very few instances in which you are left with no options. Then the decision is already made for you - you just don't go.The trick is avoiding the pitfalls to paint yourself into a corner, that is where experience comes in very handy. As the saying goes, "don't let the airplane take you somewhere your brain hasn't been 20 minutes ago".

Speak for yourself. Pay is decent with seniority at the regionals, and guess what? You get the good schedule. There's a lot to be said for being home.

This is what will be dangled in front of your face your entire career. "If you can make it long enough, you'll get something that isn't too bad."I'm a First Officer at a regional airline. I have been on reserve for 5 years. I was displaced out of my base to another base for 9 months of that 5 years, and sat reserve there as well. FOs are not taken seriously, even by the flight attendants or gate agents. I answer to the captain who may or may not really be qualified for his seat (you can thank the unions for that). You can talk about average salaries all you want, here's my ACTUAL salary after 5 years: $38,000 is the most I've made in 1 year. Life is miserable. I miss out on every holiday. When you work on Christmas day, you'll be lucky to find ANY food available by the time you get to the hotel. Last year, we talked the manager into getting us some bar snacks since none of the restuarants were open. I'm lucky if I can manage to find a way to be home for either of my daughters birthdays. I keep getting told that there will be movement. It'll be at least 2013 before movement even starts. This doesn't even scratch the surface of what we deal with.As for personal minimums. You can dig your heels in, and say you won't take a flight. You'll be pulled offline, "retrained," and all of it will be documented to be used at later time in a disciplinary hearing. We've had pilots yelled at for following a certain abnormal checklist (turns out, there was an error in the way it was written, and he burned up a pack, BUT he did what the checklist told him to do and had no way of knowing it would damage that system), we've had pilots yelled at for refusing to accept an 8 hour night (8 hours minus 15 minutes to get to the curb minus 25 minutes to get to the hotel minus 15 minutes to throw off all your clothes minus 15 minutes to put them back on minus 25 minutes to get back to the airport only leave a MAXIMUM of 6 hours and 25 minutes of sleep time with a possible 16 hour day before the sleep period and a possible 16 hour day after the sleep period - that doesn't include eating dinner or breakfast, it doesn't include a shower, it doesn't include the fact that nobody lays down and instantly falls asleep). The pilot that refused, had a legitimate reason to refuse it, and had to get the FAA involved to avoid discipline by the company. Our company builds 8 hour overnights into the schedule. Reduced rest overnights were intended as a way of resolving occassional delays due to weather, but airlines now use that rule to create schedules that SCHEDULE reduced rest as a cost-cutting measure, and all they say is "it's legal."This is a very reputable US regional airline. And this happens at airlines everywhere in the US.I could type 100 pages of stories and not scratch the surface of how bad it can be. Every RW pilot has hundreds of these personal stories.This topic asks if I would suggest anyone to get into this career. My answer is NO. It is not worth it. No pilot is respected anymore. Command decision still exists, but it is subverted constantly. There is too much to deal with, and almost NO compensation. There is no real guarantee of moving up the ladder. When I was hired my seniority number was 1867. Currently my seniority number is 1453. We have shrunk, but the amount of flying we do is about the same. Airlines are spending millions on software to make each pilot more productive, and squeezing every hour out of us they possibly can, and still manage not to pay us anything extra for it.Become successful at something that will provide you with enough income to fly general aviation when you want to. That is real flying. That is the freedom of flight. There is no freedom in airline flying.

.Let's not compare a doctor to a pilot. It is much much more difficult to become a doctor and it is a much more difficult job. When there is an "autopilot" for doctors then we can talk. Don't get me wrong being an airline captain or taking a Baron 58 full of checks down an ILS approach is not easy, but neither is surgery or diagnosing a disease. The amount of natural aptitude it takes to become a doctor can't compare to a pilot.Again pilots do have a job with a huge amount of responsibility and pay at many airlines is abysmal. But doctors earn every penny.

Let me get this right: You're saying the difficulty of a profession (both acquiring and practicing) should be the basis of salary? What about the ditch diggers? That's difficult work. I couldn't do it. I know doctors that would literally kill themselves trying to get the ratings I've got. Seeing the point, here?No, I disagree. An airline pilot is as responsible for people's lives as a doctor. And it's life or death every day (okay maybe that's sensationalizing it). Besides, I know a dentist surely makes better money. That's a doctor (do they earn every penny?)... My argument may sound juvenile, but it's a scary trend. Overworked, grossly underpaid. And becoming a professional pilot is difficult, despite what you claim.

Edited February 2, 201214 yr by ZachLW

You can't compare doctors to pilots... doctors aren't smart enough to be pilots... That's why they're always crashing their Beech Bonanza's.... :(

With all due respect, its not garbage, its my opinion based on my appetite for risk. As a private pilot, I'm completely free to dictate my own minimums in every respect. Everyone piloting commercial has some pressure to go, above and beyond that. And while admire your infallable judgement as apparent from your post, I wonder how many of your fellow CP's have found themselves 'up there' wishing they were 'down here'.Regards,George

A part121 flight may begin only after both the Captain and Dispatcher agree the flight can be made safely. If either one of us isn't happy, the flight does not go until we are. As the captain I don't have the authority to cancel a flight, only dispatch can do that, but I can delay a flight for as long as need be.If I ever found myself 'up there' wishing I was somewhere else I would have no one to blame but myself for allowing it to happen.

No, I disagree. An airline pilot is as responsible for people's lives as a doctor. And it's life or death every day (okay maybe that's sensationalizing it).

In reality it's much simpler than that. We keep ourselves in one piece and everyone in the back just comes along for the ride. :)

 

In reality it's much simpler than that. We keep ourselves in one piece and everyone in the back just comes along for the ride. :)

As my CFI used to say when consoling a nervous passenger, "I'm coming back to the airport in one piece, so you are too!" :)

Let me get this right: You're saying the difficulty of a profession (both acquiring and practicing) should be the basis of salary? What about the ditch diggers? That's difficult work. I couldn't do it. I know doctors that would literally kill themselves trying to get the ratings I've got. Seeing the point, here?No, I disagree. An airline pilot is as responsible for people's lives as a doctor. And it's life or death every day (okay maybe that's sensationalizing it). Besides, I know a dentist surely makes better money. That's a doctor (do they earn every penny?)... My argument may sound juvenile, but it's a scary trend. Overworked, grossly underpaid. And becoming a professional pilot is difficult, despite what you claim.

No, the market decides how much money someone makes. Healthcare is obviously something which everyone needs and always needs. I said becoming a pilot is not easy and it does take dedication etc.. But I still do not think a pilot should be seen in the same category or salary range as a Medical Doctor. Four years of a very hard undergraduate education, four years of an even more difficult medical school then 3 years of 60- hours weeks making low pay learning. Then depending on what you want to do another few years of learning. Plenty of people have the brain power and ability to become a pilot. Not so much for a medical doctor. That is the point I am making. And the market agrees.Now I DO think Airline Pilots are being under-paid, they have a job which is not easy to attain and a job which takes a huge amount of learning and professionalism. My point is just we should not compare pilots to medical doctors.Sadly part of the problem is people love for flying, young pilots have taken the low pay because they want to fly that badly and even though they are being under-paid, they are still being paid for something they would pay someone to allow them to do. Hopefully the trend gets better as less people decide to take the low pay and as hopefully airlines start making some money again.

You need to have the education, intellect, personality and health (and money) to become an airline pilot.

To put up with all the BS requires one more thing, an absolute, total, complete, in your DNA, love of flying. Without that, with all the 'dues' you need to pay, it's a very long and tedious path.

But I still do not think a pilot should be seen in the same category or salary range as a Medical Doctor. Four years of a very hard undergraduate education, four years of an even more difficult medical school then 3 years of 60- hours weeks making low pay learning. Then depending on what you want to do another few years of learning.

Looks like you might have posted before you read Charles Carter's posts above. You think after university people are throwing you good airline jobs? Think again. I did 4 years of University / flight training, plus at least 8 years of climbing before finding a good job. My apartment, or at least the room I rented when I was earning experience, was smaller than the body gear well of the plane I currently fly.

Plenty of people have the brain power and ability to become a pilot. Not so much for a medical doctor. That is the point I am making. And the market agrees.

Two problems with your logic. You say many people become a "pilot", something you can do in a month or two. A "Doctor" takes years to become a doctor, so you are comparing apples to oranges. Becoming a "pilot" is but a tiny fraction of becoming an "Airline Pilot". So right away you are putting an apple next to an orange and pointing out how different they are.The other problem, is thinking that there are no incompetent doctors out there. Michael Jackson's doctor was licensed, and extremely well paid. Yet when the king of pop was lying besides him unconscious and unresponsive without a pulse, he did not even know how to do CPR? He literally asked around for a doctor. The cabin crew I fly with every day could have resuscitated poor Michael. Don't get me wrong, I am not lessening the Doctor profession, I am using this example to illustrate two points. As previously said, incompetence is EVERYWHERE. Make no mistake - and it matters not how much money you are paid (although it reduces the probability a bit). And the second, you can't say something is not hard unless you have tried it.Not for one second do I think being a Doctor is easy, because I have never tried it. I know it is hard, and like flying, it requires a love and dedication because it is a mammoth long task. Now, if you as a 10 year Airline Pilot were to tell me how easy it is, then I might listen to you and actually think about what you are saying (see Chuck's post above, you might have a hard time finding one).You pick up a sim and manipulate controls and think flying is easy, then you are correct. The actual task of physically flying is quite easy, just like taking a knife and cutting a person's stomach is actually easy. But we both know that you have to understand how to prepare the patient, sedate, plan the incision, and millions of other considerations which I have not a clue about. I don't judge the medical profession simply by the act of actually cutting someone. That would be incredibly foolish and naive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE9XsDkDD40Watch the end. As a matter of fact, watch the whole thing.Cool, is it not???

I really don't think pilots and doctors can be compared, I think someone hit it on the head the market sets salaries along with the ability to source the staff. I take nothing away from anyone's job or career and how hard they work, or have had to train to get to that position. Accountability and responsibility also comes into the equation. And again although a pilot does have that accountability much of that accountability is mitigated away today with technology, systems, procedures and atc etc. hence why the change from the 50s and 60s view of pilots. So yes a pilot could(and do) make errors that kill people, but I can do that driving my car down the motorway. So things like a pilot selecting a wrong level(simple human error) actually can't be done nowadays, atc have mode s and software which would detect that, and procedures, read backs, cockpit crm etc all mitigate the risk out, hence why flying such a safe industry.But there no way you can compare the accountability, training, responsibility, of a pilot to a doctor. Quite simply the thing that sets them apart is that given enough money you can "buy" your way into being a airline pilot, no amount of money will give you a licence to be a practicing doctor. Not saying anyone could be a pilot but far easier to do so than to become a doctor.