If they continue to focus more on the game aspects of Flight to woo the gaming crowd, the competition is going to cream them. Flight cannot compete as a game, but it can compete as a flightsim . . . the sooner they realize that, the soon Flight will stand a chance of succeeding.

I think that is one of the best quotes so far...Despite the fact that I like Flight for what it is, and have been playing it regularly, I have spent over £250 on FSX in the last three weeks alone. I have bought sceneries; planes and utilities. And I've just spent a scary amount of money on a new PC. Did I do this for Flight? No. Will I still play Flight? Probably. Would I have spent that much (over a year or more, acording to MS 'road map' - sky map perhaps?) on Flight on DLC such as we have seen? (click-deficient cockpits; no cockpits at all; a single geographical area) Probably not.I suspect with the FSX 'solidarity' purchases that were going on around the 29th (according to a few threads in the FSX forum) there has been a real surge in people realising Flight wasn't/isn't FSX11 and putting their money into FSX again. I am sending them a list today, of all of the purchases I have made in the last year. I know it's a futile gesture, but I think 'connecting' with my 'target vendor' as Joshua Howard would have it, is the (only) way to get these points across to a marketing-focused company like MS. Jeez, be glad this isn't Apple we're talking about..I could tell you stories about Apple's support of heavily-invested users who have been abandoned who have far more invested in their businesses with Crapple than anything we have with MS. X-Serve, anyone?Keep emailing them sensible, and realistic ideas. I would wager anyone that all of this will seem like a storm in a teacup a ways down the line..They are listening, I am sure of that...No marketing department doesn't listen to customers ever..that's what they are for, no matter hw idiotic and short-sighted they may seem.bestjake

I have spent over £250 on FSX in the last three weeks alone. I have bought sceneries; planes and utilities. And I've just spent a scary amount of money on a new PC.

How much of this was spent with Microsoft? I think that's the big picture that MS is looking at. They want some of that revenue, and with Flight, they get it, instead of other companies. (except for the computer portion)

But that's my point, Rich..I don't think they can do it..I think they don't even think they can do it, but as Arwen pointed out; MS still think Flight can compete in today's attention-deficient gaming world out there..I'm not sure they will be competing with Skyrin users (insert MMPORG joke here) but I think it's really important we show them how much we are prepared to spend on our "hobby", and where we are spending it too..They WILL want that action.bestjakeBut that's my point, Rich..I don't think they can do it..I think they don't even think they can do it, but as Arwen pointed out; MS still think Flight can compete in today's attention-deficient gaming world out there..I'm not sure they will be competing with Skyrin users (insert MMPORG joke here) but I think it's really important we show them how much we are prepared to spend on our "hobby", and where we are spending it too..They WILL want that action.bestjake

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How much of this was spent with Microsoft? I think that's the big picture that MS is looking at. They want some of that revenue, and with Flight, they get it, instead of other companies. (except for the computer portion)

I don't think the guy you quoted above is giving one single thought that MS are not seeing any of his money.That is MS's problem, and one of their own making, for if they had chosen to give that individual what he was looking for in Flight then doubtless he would have patronised their online store with some Flight purchases.No, MS made the fateful decision to alienate a large number of their former customer base and now you have seen just one example of that.Bryan.

I don't know what happened there..I seemed to get the same post twice in the same post! (board is probably run on MS software!)

I see your point, Jake... I just think they rolled the dice, betting that even with the competition, and shrinking market, that Flight would appeal to a significantly larger audience than an FS11 would... only they are privy to actual sales figures, and only time will tell whether they were right.

No, MS made the fateful decision to alienate a large number of their former customer base and now you have seen just one example of that.

Bryan, I think they weighed that reality into their decision making, and as I said in my subsequent post, took the gamble that they would gain much more than they lose. They might be wrong in that assessment, but it appears that's the assessment they made.I sure wish they could have developed a game/sim that incorporated the ease with which Flight runs, with the level of detail it incorporates, and included all the features long time FS users (including me) have come to love... then everyone could be happy. Maybe someday... sigh.Strict Standards: Declaration of group_forum_breadcrumb::sendOutput() should be compatible with that of output::sendOutput() in /opt/webdocs/newsite/forum/hooks/group_forum_breadcrumb_d29bf565a59f776807044fd19e49258a.php on line 107

I don't know what happened there..I seemed to get the same post twice in the same post! (board is probably run on MS software!)

I thought it was early onset Alzheimers... but I wasn't gonna say anything... ; )

Good for you, Joseph. Please keep it up, and look at Flight as a new development platform for you and your colleagues.This (and us politely hassling MS) is how Flight will, one day, be FSX11. I really do believe this. I also think it's possible, and happens all the time, that a marketing strategy for a given product can and is changed. It's what marketing focus groups are for. In a year most of the casual gamers will have abandonded Flight for battlefield 4,5,6 ad nauseum..We will be the remnants..Sign me up for any beta testing of any Flight addons you can produce, please!bestjakeGood for you, Joseph. Please keep it up, and look at Flight as a new development platform for you and your colleagues.This (and us politely hassling MS) is how Flight will, one day, be FSX11. I really do believe this. I also think it's possible, and happens all the time, that a marketing strategy for a given product can and is changed. It's what marketing focus groups are for. In a year most of the casual gamers will have abandonded Flight for battlefield 4,5,6 ad nauseum..We will be the remnants..Sign me up for any beta testing of any Flight addons you can produce, please!bestjake

Ok heres something to think about.....Right now Flight is a failure, I like it, but lets face it, it is a failure. No ATC, no AI to fill out the world, and only a maximum of 5 planes to choose from, 1 of which has no flightdeck. This is EARLY stage, however no AI and ATC I still think is poor form at release in a Flight game, not even so much as a simulator.Fast Forward 8-12 months >>>Say Flight now has ATC and AI, as well as more enhanced high resolution scenery at an LOD 24 Mesh level, also there are now 18 planes to choose from and 3 total sceneries, options have been modified for higher quality or lower quality if needed, and now there are a few commercial airliners (regional aircraft). Would you call this a failure then?

Depends what kind of user you're talking about. As a sim, it would still be a failure. As a game, I expect it to be abandoned by the community by then. MS' Flight release strategy has a high Vista content: ill devised and too little too late. It should have been released with more content. You cannot keep gamers satisfied with this little content, there are far better other games for them. Adding content 3-4 times a year will not save it. I'd like to see the stats in 2 months from now.In my view, Flight's primary goals are data mining (obtaining client data and user profiles) and growing MS' online presence. I doubt whether MS really cares about its success - after all, they're making enough money with Windows and Office. However, if Flight fails to deliver, it will be abandoned.The choice for simmers is between staying with a sim platform that will not evolve further (half full) / has been declared dead by its creator (half empty) or switching to another platform, such as X-Plane. It's interesting to notice that Aerosoft has put its own plans for developing a new sim platform on ice until next year and that several addon suppliers such as Aerosoft and Carenado are clearly focusing on X-Plane. Chances that X-Plane will become the leading sim platform are growing by the day, with such an active community and a lead developer who cares about features and requests.For the time being and until I have made that decision, I'm no longer buying new FS addons.

I am surprised to read this. I have to assume that you never tried neither the almost fifty missions in FSX nor the lessons by the mythical Rod Machado, with the examinations at the end of each section. This would explain why you can enjoy Flight actually :-)

Lol, I'm actually one of the few people who enjoyed the FSX missions. And that does actually explain why I like Flight.I even downloaded countless freeware missions for FSX and bought African Airstrip Adventures. But I got kinda bored in Rod Machado's flying school when it came to holding patterns...But I see so many people who claim they never touched the missions in FSX. And X-Plane doesen't even have something similar. There are no real ongoing challenges in these sims. When you're done with the FSX missions, you have a bunch of awards to look at, but you can't really do anything with them.

And I actually want the simulator aspects to be improved in Flight, because I have other games (like ME3, BF3, and Skyrim) for the serious gaming.

Hm, but these are no flying games. Of course, we allcan have fun outside Flight with other games.But I wonder if it's worthwhile to make Flight a more serious sim if there are already other competing products in that market. And those are backed by a torrent of 3PD's who hate Flight and which are supported by a crowd of very loyal customers. From a strategic perspective, it doesn't seem wise for MS to invade into the serious sim market.Which brings us to the question: What's the USP for Flight? Or what should it be?

As one of the people who really like MS Flight.. I really do have to admit.. I got completely and utterly bored.. 10,000+nm logged and.. Yep.. Redundancy set in. Only so many times I can make flying in a virtual version of The Langoliers interesting. So I finally went back and revisited FSX with my new knowledge of navigation, even learned the GPS.. Bought two planes, Orbx Pacific Northwest.. MS need to step up the pace and start pumping out some content. Still like it a lot but as it currently sits I've milked every last drop of enjoyment out of what is currently available.

Xplane-10 should never have been dumped on the public as a finished product when it clearly was Alpha level quality.Austin Meyer has a well earned reputation for being impossible to work with under any terms other than of his own choosing, and is famous for offending both his consumer and commercial license customers. (see example links below)The reason X-Plane remains a small minority is the damage he has done to the relationships with his customers. Like the old saying goes, a zebra can't change its stripes.I fear it is only a matter of time before Austin's style of ignoring the pleas of 3rd party developers to deliver a more stable product, and mistreatment of customers will boil over into open warfare. What Microsoft Flight fails to destroy of X-Plane's customer base, Austin likely will finish off.I feel sorry for everybody else at Laminar who are really great people like Ben Supnik.

Points taken. However, fact is that X-Plane is still being developed, irrespective of Laminar's commercial skills (I believe X-Plane is at 10.04 at the moment). FS' development has ended, first with the scrapping of ACES and then with MS' decision to head towards a game environment. Jushua's attitude towards simmers' criticism against Flight is at least on par with Austin's.

X-Plane is no alternative, IMHO... It feels, it really feels, albeit it's ultra detailled Airplane Maker... an R/C model simulator... I had placed huge expectations on xp10, but they were more than sattisfied by the other sim - FLIGHT...Watching some of the FLIGHT videos I am able to see things I do not experiment in my system, with the lowest settings, specially those incredebly realistic low-visibility IMC approaches... XP10 looks strange to me, in many respects, from FM to visuals, and those clouds always remind me of a 16th century painting... All too dark.... And those unrealistic HUGE turbulence and wind shifts? And those completely messed flight physics that start with the most basic prop effects.... Nah.... sorry... Not a factor....

"I will scream 'antitrust'"

Not gonna happen. Flight is not in a dominant market position and I don't think it ever will be, because you can have other sims installed alongside it.

Austin Meyer has a well earned reputation for being impossible to work with under any terms other than of his own choosing, and is famous for offending his partners, customers and commercial certified simulation license customers. (see example links below)

I tend to disagree. Sure he is difficult, but he can be reasoned with (see here). But let's keep this discussion on Flight, not X-Plane, shall we?

You need to check out what we are doing to resurrect FSX and turn it into FSvNext a.k.a. FS11.http://forum.avsim.n...e-ashes-of-fsx/http://forum.avsim.n...estpilot-forum/

And please don't hijack this dicussion for your own causes.

Fast Forward 8-12 months >>>Say Flight now has ATC and AI, as well as more enhanced high resolution scenery at an LOD 24 Mesh level, also there are now 18 planes to choose from and 3 total sceneries, options have been modified for higher quality or lower quality if needed, and now there are a few commercial airliners (regional aircraft). Would you call this a failure then?

Its really depend:1. Quality of those sceneries (I think this is not questionable at all, Hawaii looks good enough)2.Quality of aircrafts - complete flight models, documentation - proper AFMs, ability to add my own livery, better payload, CG settings, proper system programed, failures, wear and tear...4. Interactive flight trainings, they already show that they can make nice interactive checklists, they should use advantage of that feature more.5. ATC - well, if they make one like in FSX that would be failure. Some serious ATC would be nice, and even VATSIM support, why not.6. AI - not just aircrafts, but ships, cars, airport services.7. Weather engine - current one is just ridiculous, they made just nice turbulence effect and thats all. Atmosphere is most significant part of any flight, we need properly modeled laps rate, pressure systems, fronts, temp inversions, clouds (with real behaviors), thermals...8. RL weather depiction9. Big engine improvements - commands, trackIR, rain and snow on windshield...And, all of these should be free, only aircrafts and sceneries should be payware. But there are no way we will saw 10% of this in next two years.

X-Plane will never be an option for me. The focus on flight model alone (as was for most of its previous incarnations) is not good enough IMO..Otherwise Flight would fit the bill in its entirety (apart from the lack of more good planes).X-Plane has always been marketed as the "real" alternative to FSX with respect to his "Wing Theory" system..i.e. X-Plane "properly" models aerofoil effect..I haven't flown enough real planes (PA-28 only) to know if he's right or if he's wrong, but i know that I could use FS2002 and get as close as I need, with as little (and terrible) scenery.. One could argue that Laminar are leaving the creation of sceneries to 3pd; well, they better get on with it!It's Flight and/or FSX in whatever incarnation it stays/turns into for me...bestjake