May 15, 201214 yr What is never acceptable is pulling back on your side stick in a stall, EVER.... Rónán O Cadhain. Absolutely agree. But I don't think they ever realised that they were stalling. And if you don't believe you're stalling and your V/S is showing a huge sink rate you might not want to try to push the nose down.
May 15, 201214 yr Quote: Take a look at the info below, there was no reason for the PF to apply a nose up command after they switched to Alt2* he seems to be only worried about keeping the wings level, it doesnt seem intentional. 2 h 10 min 05 Altitude=35024 The P/A2 disengages. The roll angle from 0 to 8.4 ° in 2 seconds while the handle is in neutral. The pitch is 0 degrees. Cavalry charge (Alarm: disconnection autopilot) 2 h 10 min 06 The flight control law passes from normal to alternate. PF: "I have control" During the period 2 h 10 min 07-2 h 10 min 18 The SS is positioned: - To pitch between neutral and ¾ stop - Left half and then stop right half-stop, 2 times, alternating left until it stops then right to the half-stop (period 4 seconds). The pitch increases to 11 °. The vertical acceleration varies between 0.9 g and 1.6 g. The roll angle is between 11 ° right and 6 left. The vertical velocity increases up to 5200 ft / min. What that just shows is that he didn't have a clue as to what was going on and as to what he himself was doing. He had tunnel vision, and wasn't flying the plane. That is honestly scary to see how he can so blatantly disregard a VS of +5200fpm at cruise altitude. It's beyond me. You may as well have had no pilot there for all the good he did.... Absolutely agree. But I don't think they ever realised that they were stalling. And if you don't believe you're stalling and your V/S is showing a huge sink rate you might not want to try to push the nose down. If they didn't realise that they were stalling, or if they were afraid to push down in a stall, then it's criminal that they were ever allowed in a cockpit in the first place... "STALL!!! STALL!!! STALL!!! BLEEPBLEEPBLEEEPBLEEPBLEEPBLEEP" - Fairly darn difficult not to notice, don't ya think? Check out 3:55 in this vid to see just how clear the warning is that you are stalling... [media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGxK3sL1Zbg[/media] Rónán. Rónán O Cadhain.
May 15, 201214 yr Commercial Member What that just shows is that he didn't have a clue as to what was going on and as to what he himself was doing. He had tunnel vision, and wasn't flying the plane. That is honestly scary to see how he can so blatantly disregard a VS of +5200fpm at cruise altitude. It's beyond me. You may as well have had no pilot there for all the good he did.... Exactly, the PF was not focusing on the real danger but fixated with the loss of speed and roll in direct law. What I find more scary is that if the flight crew we’re alive today and discussing another crew handling this incident they would be saying ‘pitch & Power’ fly the aircraft. Rob Prest
May 15, 201214 yr Exactly, the PF was not focusing on the real danger but fixated with the loss of speed and roll in direct law. What I find more scary is that if the flight crew we’re alive today and discussing another crew handling this incident they would be saying ‘pitch & Power’ fly the aircraft. Of course they would, but what makes the pilot is not knowing what to do in theory, but being able to apply it in practice... Captaen Rónán O Cadhain, A330. Rónán O Cadhain.
May 15, 201214 yr If they didn't realise that they were stalling, or if they were afraid to push down in a stall, then it's criminal that they were ever allowed in a cockpit in the first place... I think it's the former rather than the latter and for a number of reasons; firstly the initial and second stall warnings came about in error - the only reactions to that was a 'What is that?' and concerns about speed ('We haven't got a good display...' '... of speed'). No mentions of anything like 'We're stalling, push down!'. The AF OSV about incidents like these said the following: 'On 6 November 2008, information on speed anomalies that occurred in cruise on the A330/A340 fleet was issued at Air France to pilots in that sector..... It is specified that “during this phase, lasting around several minutes, the crews did not report any sensation of overspeed (vibration, acceleration) or approach to stall (pitch attitude, angle of attack, reference to the horizon) despite the appearance of the STALL warning”. That's when it all started to go wrong - the PF might have (wrongly) had concerns that they were going to overspeed, or as FLEX says, had target fixation on keeping the wings level when he inadvertently started that fateful climb that caused the actual stall.
May 15, 201214 yr I agree that neither the pilots of the Air France nor Colgan flights ever realized they were in a stall. Neither of them, despite all the bells and whistle, made the change in mental gears from flying the plane 'normally' where pulling back makes the plane go up, to 'stall' flying where pulling back only makes the plane fly slower. This is a fault that stems from how one was first taught to fly. Understanding and remembering that the stick 'normally' controls the speed of the plane would have saved them from having to overcome mental inertia and allowed them to undertake the correct actions in that critical situation. If it was more airspeed they needed, then just push on the stick whether you are stalled or not. Any control of altitude by stick movement is but a secondary result of speed changes made with the stick. Without a proper foundation of understanding what the stick actually does, a pilot is always at risk of failing to do the correct actions when faced with critical situations.
May 15, 201214 yr Al, whats the name for the action when you pull back on the stick subconsciously while focusing on the roll? I really should know the term but it has escaped my mind. I've seen new guy's on the A3xx do it all the time in the sim during the flight control check. I presume you are talking about muscle memory taking the elevators to a breakout deflection. If there is a specific term for it other than that, I'm not sure I've heard it. Al Alan Bradbury Check out my youtube flight sim videos: Here
May 15, 201214 yr Commercial Member I presume you are talking about muscle memory taking the elevators to a breakout deflection. If there is a specific terms for it other than that, I'm not sure I've heard it. Al My mind has drawn a complete blank which is quite frustrating! Will have another search. Cheers Rob Prest
May 15, 201214 yr PPS (edit) : Having said that, your point that "in a stall, power up and pitch down" is of course valid but the problem is that, however incredible this may sound, the crew apparently failed to recognize that the plane was stalled ! How do you get out of a situation that you don't understand? That seems to be the most heart breaking aspect of this tragedy. Submitted 3 days ago already…. Absolutely agree. But I don't think they ever realised that they were stalling. And if you don't believe you're stalling and your V/S is showing a huge sink rate you might not want to try to push the nose down. That makes sense (to me at least). Apparently the PF may have been concerned about overspeed. So unless Air France can come out with a plausible explanation for it, or they announce a massive change in their pilot training programme, I'm never getting on an AF jet as long as I live, because I don't want to be in the back of an airliner knowing that everyone on board who has seen any airliner disaster movie is probably a better pilot than the guys up at the pointy end. Al, in case you get too excited and before you freak out, may I suggest you have a cup of tea and repeat slowly before going to bed : “I am not qualified to pilot this thing and will never be, so maybe I should think twice before making that kind of statement in a forum when I am a staff member”. Rgds, Bruno
May 15, 201214 yr PRS I've never heard of any airline that has PRS here to that depth. We have ASRS/NASA reports so things get investigated but they are open to pretty much anything like flying an incorrect heading to a near miss or runway incursion. From friends I hear at other airlines the only time you get reviewed is during your probationary period. After that you are only checked on your line checks or during recurrent. I can't speak for my current situation because I haven't been here long enough, although I definitely miss Pt. 91 flying! Chris Miller
May 15, 201214 yr Al, in case you get too excited and before you freak out, may I suggest you have a cup of tea and repeat slowly before going to bed : “I am not qualified to pilot this thing and will never be, so maybe I should think twice before making that kind of statement in a forum when I am a staff member”. Rgds, Bruno Granted, I do indeed not fly an A330 and nor am I qualified to do so, but I am however, qualified to comment on it, not least because I produced the SOPs for two airlines which operate the Airbus A330, so I do know a fair bit about the systems on the real aircraft. I am also a qualified pilot, who knows how to recover from a stall, which would appear to be quite pertinent too given the discussion at hand. Being a staff member does not preclude me from expressing concern about getting on board an airliner belonging to an airline about whom I have some major concerns. And it's not just pilot training, it's a lot of other things too, for example, the way AF pilots converse in French with French ATC when everyone else in that airspace is monitoring in English, a phenomenon which anyone who has done a '100 Dollar hamburger' hop over to Northern France in Cessna will be familiar with. It's a genuine concern, and to be honest it was a genuine concern long before AF447 crashed. Al Alan Bradbury Check out my youtube flight sim videos: Here
May 15, 201214 yr I've never heard of any airline that has PRS here to that depth. We have ASRS/NASA reports so things get investigated but they are open to pretty much anything like flying an incorrect heading to a near miss or runway incursion. From friends I hear at other airlines the only time you get reviewed is during your probationary period. After that you are only checked on your line checks or during recurrent. I can't speak for my current situation because I haven't been here long enough, although I definitely miss Pt. 91 flying! Merciful lord, do I have to say this till I'm blue in the face??? PRS is NOT a reporting system. It a system for giving hints and tips to someone anonymously!!!! YOU ARE NOT REPORTING THEM!!!! THERE ARE NO LEGAL IMPLICATIONS!!! THERE ARE NO INVESTIGATIONS BASED ON IT!!! IT IS NOT THE SAME AS GETTING REVIEWED OR CHECKED!!! Sincerely, Rónán O Cadhain. The way AF pilots converse in French with French ATC when everyone else in that airspace is monitoring in English, a phenomenon which anyone who has done a '100 Dollar hamburger' hop over to Northern France in Cessna will be familiar with. It's a genuine concern, and to be honest it was a genuine concern long before AF447 crashed. Al To be honest, I'm not all that bothered by it, if they understand it better, all the better for them. And it is legal, if you don't like it, don't fly there. I'd take listening to a few RT calls in french any day over Spanish ATC but that's just me, their country, their rules... Rónán O Cadhain. Rónán O Cadhain.
May 15, 201214 yr Fair enough, but my French is not that great, and I did kind of worry that they might be saying 'oh my god I'm about to collide with that Cessna 150' when they might have simply been asking 'how are the wife and kids Pierre?' :LMAO: Al Alan Bradbury Check out my youtube flight sim videos: Here
May 15, 201214 yr Fair enough, but my French is not that great, and I did kind of worry that they might be saying 'oh my god I'm about to collide with that Cessna 150' when they might have simply been asking 'how are the wife and kids Pierre?' Al Easier for you to understand them in English, and them to understand each other in French. If they were telling a French C150 to turn left immediately to avoid smashing into my A320, I sure as hell know what language I want the ATC to be shouting at them in... Ró. Rónán O Cadhain.
May 15, 201214 yr Commercial Member The whole issue with French ATC and pilots goes back as far as I can remember. I'm pretty sure it is not just an AF issue. Don't all French aircrew speak to each other & ATC in French? Amazes me that they are allowed to get away with it. Rob Prest
Create an account or sign in to comment