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AIR FRANCE 447: New details suggest the Airbus design contributed to the crash.

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Just one little question, My friend I normally go to for A330 questions is up there somewhere now.

 

Why would you only apply TOGA in the event of a stall? Our procedures are to set max thrust for for stall horn, gear horn (set off below ~130 KIAS if gear isn't down), or stick pusher.

Chris Miller

Ya know sometimes I think pilot arrogance gets in the way of good judgement. I have watched three mayday shows. one where the Air France pilot flew his Airbus into forest while flying a demo flight way too close to the deck. and the second also an Air France crew that had a whopping great fuel leak from the tanks in the right wing and then transferred all the fuel from the left wing wing tanks and right out of the leak in the right wing tanks. And then there of course the one you are all talking about. What a joke I say shaking my head. My opinion is that the training and the attitudes need to be sorted out and quit blaming Airbus all the time. Just my two centsworth John

Just one little question, My friend I normally go to for A330 questions is up there somewhere now.

 

Why would you only apply TOGA in the event of a stall? Our procedures are to set max thrust for for stall horn, gear horn (set off below ~130 KIAS if gear isn't down), or stick pusher.

 

In Airbus to get max thrust you place the Thrust Levers into the TOGA detent, I'm not actually referring to performing the Go Around manoeuvre. Sorry, about the confusion, it's just the difference in Airbus phraseology verses twin props...

 

Ya know sometimes I think pilot arrogance gets in the way of good judgement. I have watched three mayday shows. one where the Air France pilot flew his Airbus into forest while flying a demo flight way too close to the deck. and the second also an Air France crew that had a whopping great fuel leak from the tanks in the right wing and then transferred all the fuel from the left wing wing tanks and right out of the leak in the right wing tanks. And then there of course the one you are all talking about. What a joke I say shaking my head. My opinion is that the training and the attitudes need to be sorted out and quit blaming Airbus all the time. Just my two centsworth John

 

For the record, the mid-Atlantic incident was an Air Transat flight, not Air France....

Though I certainly accept that Air France pilots have an attitude....

 

Rónán O Cadhain.

Rónán O Cadhain.

sig_FSLBetaTester.jpg

Though I certainly accept that Air France pilots have an attitude....

Hi Rónán,

Ah...Generalizations....As I happen to know - and fly ultralights/LSAs with - a few of them, I have a different opinion. But of course that's only me - and I am not in your shoes so I understand that our respective experiences can't be compared.

Best regards,

Bruno

Hi Rónán,

Ah...Generalizations....As I happen to know - and fly ultralights/LSAs with - a few of them, I have a different opinion. But of course that's only me - and I am not in your shoes so I understand that our respective experiences can't be compared.

Best regards,

Bruno

 

When you get to taxi behind an Air France jet, come back to me and let me know if I'm generalizing, or just correct.... :Waiting:

Or for that point, get to taxi in front of an Air France jet, and then get to listen to complaints over the frequency as to why we we allowed to taxi in front of the almighty Air France.....

 

But agreed, your experience of them in a private environment, and mine in a commercial environment, will of course differ....

 

Rónán.

Rónán O Cadhain.

sig_FSLBetaTester.jpg

When you get to taxi behind an Air France jet, come back to me and let me know if I'm generalizing, or just correct....

 

Coming back to you and reporting as requested :

The last time I taxied (and took off) behing an Air France jet, (he was a 777 and I an FK-9 at Gillot, FMEE) nothing special happened.

I am afraid I have no experience (yet) of the reverse situation. Will definitely let you know if and when something untoward happens ! :smile:

Kind regards,

Bruno

 

PS : Taxiing IN FRONT of an AF jet !!! Some of these Irish guys really have some nerve ! :lol:

PS : Taxiing IN FRONT of an AF jet !!! Some of these Irish guys really have some nerve ! :lol:

 

It has been said on frequency, though not in so many words....

 

Rónán.

Rónán O Cadhain.

sig_FSLBetaTester.jpg

Me thinks Bruno may have said it a complimentary way, that he admires the nerve of Irish guys being in FRONT of an AF aircraft?

Rick Almeida

Me thinks Bruno may have said it a complimentary way, that he admires the nerve of Irish guys being in FRONT of an AF aircraft?

That certainly would have dented the typical French superbia!

vololiberista

3VlzBGn.jpg?1

Super VC10 into LOWI with PF3 at a cinema near you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298UDyNmgUA

 

That certainly would have dented the typical French superbia!

vololiberista

About that report, any chance you could forward me the link anytime soon?

 

Capt. Rónán O Cadhain.

Rónán O Cadhain.

sig_FSLBetaTester.jpg

About that report, any chance you could forward me the link anytime soon?

 

Capt. Rónán O Cadhain.

 

I can't find anything on line to forward to you unfortunately. Probably because it was so many years ago in 79 I think. And, now that I don't live in UK I haven't kept much stuff with me. I don't remember any "formal" investigation as such other than a quick inspection by the company to see that the sellotape hadn't been broken! I do remember we got told off for not pressing the "event" button on the EFDAS. It was just put down to severe clear air turbulence. Have you ever experienced it over the Bosphorus?

The reference to the 707 was flight 911 which disintegrated over Mt. Fuji. http://www.pilotfriend.com/disasters/crash/boac911.htm

Mine was one of those incidents that stick in the mind. One moment everything is calm and normal, the next sudden turbulence followed by a severe sinking in the stomach confiirmed by the instruments. It took one by surprise and we were definately saved by the stick shaker and pusher, and klaxon blaring. At which point the nose was pushed down, power applied etc. If there was any doubt at all (which there wasn't) it was a lesson in having total faith in stall warnings.

Going back to AF447 the crew were perhaps well trained in what button to press and when but clearly had forgotten how to "fly".

Has Aer Lingus ever simulated this accident? Enac have something similar set up in Milan. And, as I recall no one ever got as far as setting off a stall warning.

vololiberista

3VlzBGn.jpg?1

Super VC10 into LOWI with PF3 at a cinema near you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298UDyNmgUA

 

I can't find anything on line to forward to you unfortunately. Probably because it was so many years ago in 79 I think. And, now that I don't live in UK I haven't kept much stuff with me. I don't remember any "formal" investigation as such other than a quick inspection by the company to see that the sellotape hadn't been broken! I do remember we got told off for not pressing the "event" button on the EFDAS. It was just put down to severe clear air turbulence. Have you ever experienced it over the Bosphorus?

The reference to the 707 was flight 911 which disintegrated over Mt. Fuji. http://www.pilotfrie...ash/boac911.htm

Mine was one of those incidents that stick in the mind. One moment everything is calm and normal, the next sudden turbulence followed by a severe sinking in the stomach confiirmed by the instruments. It took one by surprise and we were definately saved by the stick shaker and pusher, and klaxon blaring. At which point the nose was pushed down, power applied etc. If there was any doubt at all (which there wasn't) it was a lesson in having total faith in stall warnings.

Going back to AF447 the crew were perhaps well trained in what button to press and when but clearly had forgotten how to "fly".

Has Aer Lingus ever simulated this accident? Enac have something similar set up in Milan. And, as I recall no one ever got as far as setting off a stall warning.

vololiberista

 

You got into a stall where you dropped like a brick and the stick pusher went off, but no formal investigation was ever carried out??? Out of interest, what bird were you flying back in 1979 that could climb to FL420?

 

We have not simulated AF447 exactly per-say, though for years as I mentioned previously we did practice loss of ASI's and stalls at high altitudes. I'm sure though that the events of AF447 have been duly noted by the FTD...

 

Rónán.

Rónán O Cadhain.

sig_FSLBetaTester.jpg

Out of interest, what bird were you flying back in 1979 that could climb to FL420?

 

I'm guessing a VC-10, although the L-1011 and the 747-200 and 300 could also make it up there, plus a few other less common types. On a good day with a light load the DC-10 could probably just about make it up to 42,000.

 

Al

Alan Bradbury

Check out my youtube flight sim videos: Here

I'm guessing a VC-10, although the L-1011 and the 747-200 and 300 could also make it up there, plus a few other less common types. On a good day with a light load the DC-10 could probably just about make it up to 42,000.

 

Al

Very nice, always wanted to operate some of the older birds myself, particularly the VC-10.....

 

Rónán.

Rónán O Cadhain.

sig_FSLBetaTester.jpg

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