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AFS design bad support [Old, outdated thread]

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**Note: This is an old thread based on an experience of an individual only. During these years the quality of said developer may or may not have improved, please do not post to this thread unless you have something meaningful to add. This thread isn't intended to be used as a bash campaign of any kind.**

 

//////////////////////////////////////////

 

 

Normally I respect FS addon developers very much, even a bit lower quality ones. However extreme lies and rudeness of AFS Design has brought me to share my experiences with you.

I was looking for some kind of A320NEO product, and saw AFS Design Airbus Industrie FSX addon available at Simmarket for pretty cheap price, and bought it as I was also planning to try merge its A340-200 and A340-500. I wasn't expecting much at all, I knew that AFS design is lower quality developer, but this went far below my expectations.

This is what product page says:
 

http://secure.simmarket.com/afs-design-airbus-industrie-fsx.phtml

Ok, now what is rubbish with this:

1. In fact this product does not include own model for A330-200, A340-200 & A340-500. They just use same model with -300 and -600, just with different textures that have different amount of windows. That is total rubbish, you just can't call A340-600 with A340-500 windows a A340-500 and same goes with others. When I buy product which says that those models are included I expect actual OWN MODELS, not REPAINTS.

2. Cabin interior models are totally useless, they do not include virtual cockpit at all but just cabin. This although product page claims that all models have VC.

Okay, this is where complete lies in product page end. Now, however in fact this product does not even work correctly, like you can see there is invisible cargo door and pax doors all time and you can see them when there is clouds behind them. This same thing is with every single model, and those models are from his previous individual addons so it seems that he has not fixed them at all during long time.

33w729e.jpg


Okay, so I was naturally very disappointed and did two, perfectly appropriate reviews:


" I bought this because of A32- NEO models. Even with this low price I don't think that this product is worth it at all. A32- series outside models are ok, but A340-300 and A340-200 both share same outside model although -300 is much longer, they have just different livery, but this is mentioned nowhere in product information, and same seems to be with A330-200 and -300 too. A350 looks nothing like what has been now later published and has incorrect range and there is only one A350 model although product page mentions them all, A380 isn't very impressive either.
Virtual cockpit is ok and mostly keeps what is promised in product page, but really not better than many freewares out there. Also most models are overpowered and takeoff & climb in unrealistic short time, and there seems to be some problem with some of the models which shows partially invisible cargo doors hanging open from certain angle.

If you want A320NEO models and some kind of "A350" really bad, then this might be almost worth it for you. However if looking for other proper Airbus models there is many better choices than this, including freeware ones. I wouldn't be all so negative if these shortcomings were properly mentioned on product page, I wasn't expecting much but this went below even these expectations.
Two starts only for A320NEO models.
"
Had not yet noticed that this problem is with all models.

Then I noticed also cabin problem:



"And as addition to my review before. Actually model with virtual cabin is independent from one with virtual cockpit, and really just totally useless... Before releasing something like this as payware developer should at least mention these things."

Okay. So after this I emailed AFS design, this is the first email and answer:






"Hello. Your Airbus Industrie FSX product says that included models are:

  • AIRBUS A319neo
  • AIRBUS A320neo Cabin interior model
  • AIRBUS A321neo
  • AIRBUS A330 - 200
  • AIRBUS A330 - 300
  • AIRBUS A340 - 200
  • AIRBUS A340 - 300
  • AIRBUS A340 - 500
  • AIRBUS A340 - 600
  • AIRBUS A330 cabin interior model
  • AIRBUS A350
  • AIRBUS A380
  • AIRBUS A380F
  • AIRBUS A380 cabin interior model

However, I found out that A330-200 & -300, and A340-200 & 300 share same model although in real life they are in different size. Why is this not mentioned in product page? I feel like betrayed for being sold product which in fact does not include all models it claims to include, just two different Airbus paints for same model. Also I expected cabin interior models too to have virtual cockpit like lots of addons have, and it actually says this: "All models have a fully functional cockpit"

Simmarket did not accept my request for refund as this is product related problem...

I would highly appreciate it if it would be possible to get free product to compensate for misinformation regarding this product.

Free AFS design MIG-21 for me would take my irritation off, this product sold did not meet it claims for me.

Yea, I did request if compensation with another product for free would work as Simmarket did not give me refund as they are only service that sells AFS design products.

Then AFS design answer:



"
Hello,

A330-200 and A330-300 ( A340-200 and -300 ) have different textures with other windows, therefore it's different airplanes in FSX/FS2004.
In the next two weeks I work for a update of the cargo problems.

Regards

"
This was 14th day of this month.
Then, in 23th I emailed again, simply asked if there is progress:

"Hello, have you started working on the update?"

This is the answer:


"
For your review in SimMarket ???

"

So because I told the truth about problems with product, completely appropriate way which Simmarket accepted this guy thinks that I am not worth support. I highly believe that these flaws have been on AFS design individual products for months as this one is only collection of already released products.

This is not acceptable kind of service.

 

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I especially liked this part of what I assume is your review : "Overall, the quality is that of a medium-level freeware product." For 20 Euro, surely you expected that? The product isn't *broken*, it's *cheap*.

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**NOTE: This is an old thread based on an experience of an individual, since then the support practices and product quality of said developer may or may not have changed. Please do not resurrect this topic unless you have something meaningful to add.**

 

Okay, this is getting completely childish now...

I posted completely appropriate complaint to him after his email, and this is his answer:

 

Length A330-200 = 59 m
Length A330-300 = 62 m

My models are different !!!

My answer to this:

How exactly? In my Simobject\Airplanes folder I have two A330 airplane folders, they are:

A330_afs_X

A330i_afs_X


 

I go to aircraft.cfg. First one has both A330-200 and A330-300 liveries there, and second one says just A330, I don't know which one.

I know enough about FSX to know that your A330-200 and A330-300 use exactly same model there. Where is the 3 meter difference?


His answer:

 

What do you see in my aircraft folder ??
It's my folder ?????
In model.cfg are different models.
The folders are copyright AFS, I make a police report !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh yeah, so he says that I break copyrights when I look at AFS design folders at Simobjects\Airplanes

Also, so you can see that he is lying, exactly same model with just different textures for -200 and -300.


A330-200 upper, and -300 lower picture.

o356s.jpg
4hxkx1.jpg

 


I especially liked this part of what I assume is your review : "Overall, the quality is that of a medium-level freeware product." For 20 Euro, surely you expected that? The product isn't *broken*, it's *cheap*.


Yes I expected it to be in bad quality, but I did not expect product page to lie about most basic things such as which models it include and even invisible cargo doors hanging out all the time.

But really the rudeness of this developer is what annoys me.

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Quite frankly, I'm with Zach on this. I think you need to reflect on the following:

 

1. You bought an add-on for a computer flight simulation program

2. It was a relatively low-priced add-on

3. It is not perfect and you have identified some defects with it.

 

Having reflected on those items, it would perhaps also be a useful exercise to consider the term 'proportionate response' in the context of your extended polemic.

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So 20 euro is cheap now?

 

This looks like a poor offering even by freeware standards.

 

God bless Flight 1 and a 30 day money back warranty.

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Yeah after all I thankfully got refund from Simmarket.

 

And I agree that I did initially over react a bit with my reviews and all that, just felt very disappointed for lack of -200 and -500 models that really together with A320NEO were really only reason why I bought this product after had some problems with CLS A340 / Wilco merge. I am just used to getting product that actually has everything product page claims, and also product that has no severe and easily noticeable problems with its outside model. I have had business with lots of lower quality publishers and all of their products at least have been free from big graphical flaws and included all models they claimed to include instead of just different paint. I can't understand how just taking few meters away from this 3d model has been so impossible thing to do...

 

Also for 30 euros I can get something around Wilco quality or for this 20 euros some high quality major airport scenery that has taken 10x effort of this product, so I wouldn't call this necessarily cheap. Had this been 10 euros my disappointment with these total flaws would have been much smaller. Yes no addon is perfect, but selling product with severe flaws without telling potential customer about them is not acceptable thing to do.

 

Anyway what I disliked most was again whining about my negative reviews and refusal to fix these problems, that made it feel like a scam really, selling totally incomplete product and then just forgetting whole thing after getting my money.

 

Anyway I still do hope all best to AFS design and hope that its standards will improve in future.

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So 20 euro is cheap now?

 

This looks like a poor offering even by freeware standards.

Given that PMDG, for instance, will charge you 3-4 times as much for a package with fewer models it's not particularily pricey, but you have to expect quality to be thereafter as well. The main issue here seems to be that the add-on maker thinks a repaint with more windows counts as a separate model whereas FScamp does not (plus the issue with the cargo doors).

 

I'm not an Airbus fan and nor do I care how many windows an A330 has so I'm not gonna side with anyone on that issue, but I do care about how a developer treats customers, whether they are happy or not, and this:

What do you see in my aircraft folder ??

It's my folder ?????

In model.cfg are different models.

The folders are copyright AFS, I make a police report !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

... is NOT appropriate behaviour for a professional add-on developer, so thank you FScamp for bringing this up. That's another one off my list of devs that I will consider buying from.

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So 20 euro is cheap now?

 

This looks like a poor offering even by freeware standards.

 

God bless Flight 1 and a 30 day money back warranty.

 

Coming from an NGX owner? Seriously? Yes, that would be "cheap".

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I cant believe the developer said he is going to make a police report just because you opened the folder, lol. Good luck with that.

 

Dev calling police.

 

Police: Yes sir, what is your emergency?

 

Dev: I need to report someone just opened their Simobjects folder that has my FSX addon airplane installed in it.

 

Police: Huh?

 

Dev: Yes, a customer of mine just opened a folder on their computer.

 

Police: What in the heck are you talking about?

 

Dev: They broke a law.

 

Police: Sir, I think you are in need of serious help. Are you on any medications? Did you forget to take your meds today? We're sending a unit to your location, dont do anything drastic!

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See, I don't buy the whole PMDG will charge you 3-4 times more thing. Just because PMDG can charge that doesn't mean that any old tat can be sold for 20 euros.

 

With Pmdg, I know I am getting quality and depth, and I expect to pay for that.

 

What I dont expect is Fs2002 standard addons (some easily eclipsed by freeware) to be sold at 20 -30 euros and us all be expected to be greatful because it's not 3-4 times as much.

 

I would expect we would see a lot less of this if more publishers followed Flight 1's example. They stand by the quality of the addon. If you are not satisfied you get a refund, no questions asked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Coming from an NGX owner? Seriously? Yes, that would be "cheap".

 

So any old junk can be sold for 20 euro just because it's cheap compared to the NGX?

 

That makes no sense at all.....

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See, I don't buy the whole PMDG will charge you 3-4 times more thing. Just because PMDG can charge that doesn't mean that any old tat can be sold for 20 euros.

 

With Pmdg, I know I am getting quality and depth, and I expect to pay for that.

 

What I dont expect is Fs2002 standard addons (some easily eclipsed by freeware) to be sold at 20 -30 euros and us all be expected to be greatful because it's not 3-4 times as much.

 

I would expect we would see a lot less of this if more publishers followed Flight 1's example. They stand by the quality of the addon. If you are not satisfied you get a refund, no questions asked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So any old junk can be sold for 20 euro just because it's cheap compared to the NGX?

 

That makes no sense at all.....

 

I think you should check the market and reevaluate your expectations (I am not being sarcastic to anyone here). Take a look at Abacus. They produce pure... junk... You get what you pay for (barring some great sales I've come across).

 

As for PMDG: They do charge 3-4 times more than most "bargain developers". That's easy enough to prove... What's the argument? Again, *you get what you pay for*.

 

To the OP. Snipping out parts of the email and showing us tiny quotes with absolutely no context whatsoever makes the post seem a bit sketchy. No offense there, just an observation.

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I don't need to check the market. I am very particular about what and where I buy from.

 

What I don't appreciate is rip off junk (most of which can usually be found at sim market) masquerading as quality addons in 2012. Most of this stuff would have been poor quality even back in the FS2002 days.

 

If Flight 1 can sell the recently released Cardinal for $23, then there is zero excuse for the addon mentioned above selling for 20 euros.

 

Buyer beware I guess is the takeaway from all this....

 

 

 

Pmdg have single handedly taken the addon market to the 3-4 times price. I haveno issue with this because the value and quality level is 100 times higher.

 

If developers think its ok to charge 20 euro for tat just because it's cheaper than pmdg, good luck to them. I doubt they will sell much and certainly not to me!

 

What argument by the way?

 

I simply said that pmdg charging 3-4 times the price does not make it acceptable for others to charge 20 euro for worthless tat.

 

I was not debating or questioning the price of pmdg products as you are implying.

 

Bottom line here, people are fee to charge whatever they want for an addon. Just don't expect people to be happy when it turns out to be crap.

 

 

 

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I am very particular about what and where I buy from....

Buyer beware I guess is the takeaway from all this....

 

Excellent point, and piece of advice.

 

Flight1's refund policy is the exception, not the norm, when it comes to flight sim addons.

 

I think it would be very wise for us to do our research before buying anything. Check out reviews on Avsim and elsewhere on the Internet. Look up videos on Youtube.

 

Before you buy a non-refundable product, you should have a good idea as to what you're buying.

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This is actually one of the plus points of Simmarket, users can put up reviews and you can check them out. And there are plenty of reviews of AFS products on there, many of which are not hugely favourable. I've put one or two buyer reviews up on Simmarket myself for things I was either particularly impressed with, or on occasion less than thrilled with. It would have taken you around five minutes of reading to determine that AFS was not scoring too highly with buyers. Moreover, some of the screenshots of AFS products betray a less than stellar ability at texturing and modeling, and that tells us plenty too.

 

The clues were there if you had done a bit of scouting about, and so it is simply a case of caveat emptor. A search on google will also turf up quite a number of unfavourable comments about AFS too, and whilst it does sometimes pay to make your own mind up about stuff as opposed to going purely off what others say, the fact that there are plenty of people saying less than complimentary things about AFS would be enough of pointer to me, to at least warrant some caution before hitting that 'add to cart' button.

 

Personally I don't expect everything to match the kind of thing A2A can produce in either the looks or systems department, and some budget or simpler FS add-ons have a place in my own virtual hangar, but there's a world of difference between built to a price, and cheap and nasty, and you can usually suss that out with a bit of reading up on the net or careful observation of screenshots. One look at the extremely ropey modeling of the pilot figure in one of the VCs of an AFS Airbus, which is pictured on Simmarket, was enough to tell me not to consider them, and especially when FSL are mere months away from releasing a proper stab at an A320.

 

Al

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I bought their su-27 sometime ago. What a mistake. I put a little review of it in simmarket. And i agree with the guys, there is enought information about the quality of their products available to not regret later.

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See, I don't buy the whole PMDG will charge you 3-4 times more thing. Just because PMDG can charge that doesn't mean that any old tat can be sold for 20 euros.

Apologies for not being clear enough. What I should've said was that 20 euros doesn't seem like a lot of money for the package in question. Could be that I'm wrong and the product is truly wretched. I admit the signs are all there. If you cram pretty much the entire Airbus range into a 51 mb file you must be cutting some corners and every time I see cabin interiors as detailed as this one I can't help getting the feeling that they're just doing it to take focus away from shortcomings in other, more important areas.

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I came across this because I was considering purchaing the A350 model from this outfit. Thanks for the heads up. It is interesting to note that a demo version was uploaded here a few days ago. It seems that a lot of people could be deceived and cheated.

 

With respect to some of the comments here. Some people think that the doctrine of caveat emptor is the law. It most definietly is not. Vendors are to supply a product which conforms to their descritpion of the product. They are not allowed to lie through their teeth.

 

If a product claims to have a VC, it should have a VC. To claim that the product has a VC when it does not, is fraud.

 

Second, outfits like Simmarket apparently take the position that they are not responsible for the products they sell. This is incorrect. The contract is between the consumer and Sim Market. There is no contractual relationship between the consumer and the developer, in this case AFS. If you are going to get your money back, you are going to get it back from Simmarket.

 

Perhaps a vendor can be excused to some extent if they were not aware of problems with the product when it was first listed. But once they become aware of the problem, they are equally guilty of fraud if they continue to list that product and continue to include the fraudulent claims concerning that product. Once consumers started posting negative feedback, they clearly were on notice that the product was not what was being advertised.

 

Indeed it seems that many developers and vendors live by the Ferengi first rule of acquisition: "Once you get their money, you never give it back."

 

It is an unfornate fact of life that developers and vendors get away with fraud. But it is unfortunate in the same way that consumers often get away with piracy. This is not rocket science, but plain every day honesty.

 

Another factor here is the consumer never gets a chance to really look at the product before putting down his money. Instead, he gives his money and HOPES the product lives up to its claims. And when the consumer discovers that he has been cheated, he is met with stonewalling and threats?

 

If people in this hobby don't want to become the victims of liars and cheats, they need to make it clear that such conduct will not be tolerated. If they don't want to pay money for substandard products, they need to hold the people peddling those products accountable. This means we don't make excuses for fraudsters. We don't try to justify the release of substandard products.

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Right on the money Douglas. "Cheap" is relative, price does not matter when a contract is breached, in this case by failing to deliver what is promised and described. The buyer fulfilled his part, the vendor did not. No need to bring out the popcorn, case closed.

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I came across this because I was considering purchaing the A350 model from this outfit. Thanks for the heads up. It is interesting to note that a demo version was uploaded here a few days ago. It seems that a lot of people could be deceived and cheated.

 

With respect to some of the comments here. Some people think that the doctrine of caveat emptor is the law. It most definietly is not. Vendors are to supply a product which conforms to their descritpion of the product. They are not allowed to lie through their teeth.

 

If a product claims to have a VC, it should have a VC. To claim that the product has a VC when it does not, is fraud.

 

Second, outfits like Simmarket apparently take the position that they are not responsible for the products they sell. This is incorrect. The contract is between the consumer and Sim Market. There is no contractual relationship between the consumer and the developer, in this case AFS. If you are going to get your money back, you are going to get it back from Simmarket.

 

Perhaps a vendor can be excused to some extent if they were not aware of problems with the product when it was first listed. But once they become aware of the problem, they are equally guilty of fraud if they continue to list that product and continue to include the fraudulent claims concerning that product. Once consumers started posting negative feedback, they clearly were on notice that the product was not what was being advertised.

 

Indeed it seems that many developers and vendors live by the Ferengi first rule of acquisition: "Once you get their money, you never give it back."

 

It is an unfornate fact of life that developers and vendors get away with fraud. But it is unfortunate in the same way that consumers often get away with piracy. This is not rocket science, but plain every day honesty.

 

Another factor here is the consumer never gets a chance to really look at the product before putting down his money. Instead, he gives his money and HOPES the product lives up to its claims. And when the consumer discovers that he has been cheated, he is met with stonewalling and threats?

 

If people in this hobby don't want to become the victims of liars and cheats, they need to make it clear that such conduct will not be tolerated. If they don't want to pay money for substandard products, they need to hold the people peddling those products accountable. This means we don't make excuses for fraudsters. We don't try to justify the release of substandard products.

 

Agree 100%. Honestly, people in this hobby can be so condesecnding sometimes. Why is it the OP's fault that he didn't do a whole lot of extra reading around the product and user reviews? Why should he have to? When a product is advertised a prospective buyer should be able to take it in good faith that the product he/she is paying for is exactly what is being sold. Going and blaming the OP in this situation because they took this advertisement from a large vendor in good faith is pretty darn arrogant and it puts the blame on the buyer instead of squarely on the vendor/developer. Which is where it should well be.

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Yeah after all I thankfully got refund from Simmarket.

 

 

Simmarket always comes through. They are one of the best places there is to buy addons. :wub:

 

My suggestion is to never buy an aircraft sim that is under $35 unless you have heard great praise for it though out the Avsim forums, or you know the quality of the developer from past experience.

I know you have to sift through the comments about a product sometimes, to get the truth, but you can always get the feel if the comments are honest or just bashing.

It's always worth checking here first.

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Thanks for the heads up. Based on the info provided by the seller and the product you paid for and got this is a fraud, or very misleading at best. A repaint is not the same as a different model. Sadly most addons are crap. Luckily we have serious shops like Simmarket out there who can put things right. Also, you could demand money back from your creditcard company since you didn't get the product you paid for.

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Second, outfits like Simmarket apparently take the position that they are not responsible for the

If people in this hobby don't want to become the victims of liars and cheats, they need to make it clear that such conduct will not be tolerated. If they don't want to pay money for substandard products, they need to hold the people peddling those products accountable. This means we don't make excuses for fraudsters. We don't try to justify the release of substandard products.

 

Very, very well said. This may be a niche hobby, and it may be true that sometimes we should be grateful for what we get, but I will never understand the strange Stockholm syndrome that makes some simmers so eager to make excuses for egregious developer behavior.

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Does this add-on have a VC or not?

Version with no cabin apparently has, however one with cabin modeled doesn't for some reason, and that wasn't mentioned anywhere. Or at least this is how it was when I bought it, of course after I got refund I removed it from my system so I have no idea if its developer has released new version of it or something.

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My experience with AFS DESIGN and the model designer person in particular has been more than happy.

 

One of their products has been updated, whereas the online store I've bought it from didn't offer a way of getting the updated product without purchasing again. I've sent AFS DESIGN an email and in just a FEW MINUTES I've got a reply with a Thank you for my purchase and download links for the updated product.

 

I've felt obliged to inform you about my good experience with AFS DESIGN since the support and the friendlyness I've been treated with has been outstanding.

 

P.S I've nothing no commercial or any other interest with AFS DESIGN

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