I know most people agree the flight dynamics of the Realair Legacy are excellent but I have a question about the landing phase.

 

I find it impossible to judge my height from the runway surface in the final phase of a flight. I honestly couldn't tell the difference 10 and 30ft. Consequently I have a terrible time judging my landing and improving my technique. This gets particularly complicated when I add a bit of crosswind or bad weather. So I'm wondering if the Realair Legacy realistically reflects poor landing technique.For example if I flare too soon and allow the plane to drop will it realistically bounce and possibly nose over if I don't get the power on fairly lively. The reason I am asking is despite uncertainty about my technique I have never had a landing where the Legacy did anything seriously dangerous such as bounce or skid. I have always been able to "save the day" with some frantic rudder pushing to try and stay straight on the roll-out. But I know my technique is rough, I lack certainty and feel that anything could happen.

 

Any takers/advice????

Does it have an option for a castering nosewheel? It would make your life a little bit more active on rough landings...

In my humble opinion, it's all about speed management. 90kts over the numbers and.......

 

 

I started this reply as an expert on landing a Legacy. I've now dried up, except to say, speed management + feel.

 

Feel free to ignore this. :rolleyes:

maintain your GS and speed , you can use the VASI as a reference but only as a reference.

FSX does a bad job in general about modeling ground contact. This is separate from the realism of the flight model. It's why water landings are so unrealistic. So there is no addon you can get that will capture the feel of rollout realistically, and no way to get FSX to replicate the consequences of bad landing technique.

 

There are a number of ways that good payware aircraft can capture what it feels like to fly in real life. A good FDE will replicate glide characteristics and allow you to slip well and sometimes do a fair job of replicating crosswind behavior. So setting up the landing through flare mimics life decently to well.

 

Where FSX fails miserably is in modeling ground effect and the fickleness of wind patterns at the surface (which cause floating and lifts and tilting, etc.), and even worse, the physics of wheels in contact with the ground when technique is poor. Developers have worked to model torque and p-factor with some success (largely by cheating, I think, meaning that they design in behavior rather than actual physics). Rollout behavior is WAY off from RL in tailwheel aircraft especially. Has anyone ever managed to ground loop a FSX tailwheel bird?

 

I keep hoping ground physics will be something A2A tackles at some point.

 

By the way, in RL nosing over would be something that happens only with a good sized bounce at stall speeds, which is also something FSX doesn't model well. I think the best practice is to NOT try to flare. Let the flare sort of happen automatically as you level to fly right above the ground, and as you work to keep it off as long as possible. Fly it on while trying not to touch. That way you just work not to balloon, and slowly "feel" for the ground.

Has anyone ever managed to ground loop a FSX tailwheel bird?

 

Many many times. More than I'm comfortable admitting. There's a lot of weight behind the mains in the Goose.

 

Hook

By the way, in RL nosing over would be something that happens only with a good sized bounce at stall speeds, which is also something FSX doesn't model well. I think the best practice is to NOT try to flare. Let the flare sort of happen automatically as you level to fly right above the ground, and as you work to keep it off as long as possible. Fly it on while trying not to touch. That way you just work not to balloon, and slowly "feel" for the ground.

 

I always want to flare, I want to keep that nosewheel off, for as long as possible. I want to agressively think about flare, during the landing phase. The idea here, is to keep the nosewheel up, and not land flat on all three gear. And BTW, I have no problem at all, in judging ground height, for the flare. I will also use power on & power off techniques for landing these small planes.

 

As for takeoffs, I'm thinking the same about nose gear. It get's off the ground, as soon as possible. My real life technique for castoring nosewheels, is full back as I add the power. As airspeed builds, I'm adjusting the stick forward, to get the airplane in a nosewheel high attitude as soon as possible. The idea is to keep the weight off the nosewheel, as much as possible.

 

L.Adamson

Yes, many people work the flare as you describe. This is one of those 100 pilots-100 opinions issues. What I'm saying is that over the years, I've found that I do better landings when I don't "aggressively" flare. Yes, I want to keep the nose wheel off as long as possible, or, more usually for me, touchdown in a three-point attitude. I have just found I do that naturally and more smoothly by flying "level" but holding her off as long as possible. As she settles, I feed in back stick to keep her off. I keep doing that until she runs out of flying speed and touches. At that point, I'm quite nose high without ever intentionally "flareing" during the landing.

 

Properly speaking, the flare is the transition from descent to level flight over the runway. Some people call that the round out. That is essential, of course, not to do a carrier landing and wreck your gear. Many people think an additional "flare" is necessary after the round out to level flight, but it's not. Flying level over the runway at idle will make you land. Holding her off as long as possible as she starts to sink will feed in nose up attitude. It's unavoidable and doesn't need to be intentionally done. Doing it intentionally often results in ballooning when airspeed is still a little high.

 

Try it. You may like it. :-)

I agree, just keep it flying as long as you can, inches from the runway, and you'll touchdown at Landing Attitude, at the right speed, and it will be smooth.

 

On a Boeing 737 you have to Flare because the Wing Design will make the aircraft loose altitude even with a nose high attitude, so you have to bring the nose up a couple of degrees and wait for touchdown, but these general aviation birds have a totally different wing, where if you flare to a nose high atitude, you will immediately gain altitude, more than you want, then you will loose your airspeed, and come back to the surface with a high rate of descent, it won't be smooth. It's got to be very gentle, you make the aircraft flight level as much as you can, it will land when it can't keep flying anymore. That's how I learned to land, and everytime I let it touch the runway before that moment, it's not a good landing, and a dangerous one depending on the winds at the time, and other factors.

An easy solution is to use the freeware FLUSIFIX program to install altitude callouts on the Legacy then practice your landings and get used to the view from the aircraft at approx 10 ft up. Then when you are confident of your flaring height remove the callouts again using FLUSIFIX.

 

Hope this helps

 

Adam

Will respond more tonight. Using I phone. Just remember, a nose wheel is to taxi with. You don't land flat!

It seems to me that the main weakness of FSX regarding ground handling is insufficient tire contact adhesion. It's often like landing on ice with the plane sliding sideways on the runway. Otherwise FSX is decent, depending on the modeling quality of the particular plane.

 

Regarding ground effect, for example, the Classics Hangar FW190 models this and the ground effect is very noticeable in the flare. If you're too fast, you'll float half way down the runway before settling down.

 

On the issue of groundlooping, I find it extremely difficult to land the FSX default Piper J3 Cub without groundlooping. This is the case with my computer, anyway, with all realism settings at max. I don't have this problem with other planes. I wonder if others have this same groundlooping problem with the default Cub.

 

The original poster, Anthony1968, says that it's impossible while landing the Legacy to judge height above the runway, whether it's 10' or 30'. I haven't flown the Legacy, but this problem seems strange given that the Legacy should have fairly good visibility. I could understand this problem when landing a WWII fighter which totally blocks your view when flaring. Anthony1968, I wonder if maybe you should raise or widen your viewpoint in the sim so that you can get a better view of the runway.

Why do I remember a comment from my flght instructor (as we were oggling a Lancair on the parking ramp) about "driving it to the ground". Not so much flare but vertical speed control. The proper way to land was on all three wheels simultaneously.

This is one of those 100 pilots-100 opinions issues.

 

As an instructor... no I don't think it is... I am 100% w/ Larry on this. I have only about 1000 RW landings (C152s to PA-44s and a small variety in-between) but I think that enough to have a basic idea of what I am doing... especially having taught others.

 

touchdown in a three-point attitude.

 

Taildragger? yeah... good. Nosewheel plane? three-point attitude???

 

Many people think an additional "flare" is necessary after the round out to level flight, but it's not.

 

I am just wondering... when I took my CFI checkride... if I had explained landings that way to the FAA examiner what his reaction would have been...

 

 

The proper way to land was on all three wheels simultaneously.

 

No no no... not for a tri-cycle gear... not if you don't want to have some wheelbarrow / ding the prop kind of loss-of-control accident. Which happens every year btw.

 

Even for twins (which you never "flare") you still put in a slightly nose high attitude. Maybe this is what your instructor was referring to... more like landing a twin than a single.

 

I wonder if others have this same groundlooping problem with the default Cub.

 

Yeah it can get squirrely if you don't stay on top of it - be ready to stick in a lot of rudder if it starts to swing.

 

The original poster, Anthony1968, says that it's impossible while landing the Legacy to judge height above the runway, whether it's 10' or 30'.

 

I think this comes from experience (which I have none in this plane btw)... landings are hard and I could see from RW experience, if one does not have any, it will make a landing that much harder to judge in the sim when to flare / roundout. Getting the proper perspective (judgement) when to start the roundout takes some time. Practice practice practice.

 

Best thing is to follow the Flying Guide. 100kts on Final and 85kts over the fence. One should already know roughly (within an inch or so) what MAP to use - Guide recommends 12-15" of MAP. Go up to a couple thousand feet and practice landing config. Know what you need to fly the above w/ gear and full flaps descending as it says 500-600fpm. You stick the power in once while in the pattern... that way only minor adjustments can be made if necessary. "No one likes a throttle jockey" one of my instructors used to say.

 

where if you flare to a nose high atitude, you will immediately gain altitude

 

Not if you know what you are doing... you have to be gentle... not hauling back on the stick too rapidly or you will balloon.

 

you make the aircraft flight level as much as you can

 

This is wrong Alex... as I described above.. it is a recipe for an accident. And my bet is you use much more runway than necessary (so how to do a short/soft-field landing btw?).

 

For the life of me I cannot believe an instructor would teach this. But then... it would explain some of the loss of control accidents on landing.

I fly a Low Wing aircraft that you have to be VERY gentle not to balloon during the Flare, it definitely takes a lot of practice to nail that landing. I have 60 Hours and over 400 landings already. I have no idea how I got that much, but that's what is written in my File. A LOT of Touch and Goes.

 

I won't land completely stalled, my landings are according to the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, I have read it many times, specially in the areas I have struggled the most, and some still do, and it has helped me a lot. You continuously increase your AoA, while loosing your speed, and that will eventually let you settle on the ground. This should be done very close to the ground, I don';t see your point of this being a recipe for an accident, really.

 

About using more runway than necessary, never being an issue, if you come at the right Approach Glide for the Runway, right Speed, you will close the throttle at the right moment, do your flare and land with a good safety margin of runway, I've been taught you don't brake much these GA airplanes, unless the runway is small, the aircraft itself will reduce speed, and by the time you reach the taxiway, there's little braking to be done.

 

About Short Field Landing, that one you're going to come at a reduced speed, and minimize the Flare as to touch as fast as possible to start braking early, a totally different procedure to a normal landing. Almost all the landings that something went wrong was because I was touching down faster than normal, it's quite normal to the aircraft to get back flying again after one of these high speeds touchdown if not flared properly.