Boeing 727 Handling and Behaviour Question

[HaraldG]

Hi to all,

perhaps especially to these members who know the Boeing 727 from own experiences.

 

Now, after I switched from a DC-6 to the B727 (Appliance, your Scotch...), some questions arise regarding the flying and handling behaviour of this type, not only in general but because I noticed differences between two available FS2004 models.

I started with the B727-100 from HJG (essentially the Vistaliners model) and switched over now to the Dreamfleet 727-100.

 

Now the questions:

 

1. I realized that with cruising speed (M 0.8 at FL370, N1 is at approximately 80%), the plane has constantly a certain angle of attack of perhaps 3-5 degrees. Is this the real behaviour of a B727?

Note: a) I did not load any passengers at my first flights, only a basic crew and 100 kg of luggage in the rear compartment.

b ) When I recently made a trip in real world (of course as a passenger...) with a B737-800, I observed a certain AOA, too.

 

2. While the engines of the HJG 727 seemed to spool up quite slowly, the engines of the DF 727 respond very quickly to even small movements of the power levers.

Which behaviour is more correct?

 

3. While the spoilers of the HJG 727 have an "armed" setting for deploying automatically after touchdown, the spoilers of the DF 727 are to deploy manually only. This is confirmed by the manual. But why has HJG 727 auto-deploying spoilers, as is seems to be programmed very acurately else?

 

Finally - although the DF 727 is praised everywhere - and justifiably so - some words about the above said models; while the DF 727 as payware supersedes the HJG 727 in almost all aspects, for instance in visuals, existence of a VC (while I use strictly 2D panel for using switches etc, if I look around I prefer a VC instead of fixed bitmap views) and particularly in simulation depth, there are some details I miss comparing it to HJGs model: These are the wings which bend upwards when flying, the animated thrust reverser shells and - of course - the animated windshield wiper...

 

I really look forward to your opinions...

 

Harald

[JP_Visser]

I can help a tiny bit, the first question the AOA providing your weight and balance is setup right is correct,

Lots of people that sim question this, I think it is because we are not pilots and thus it seems weird

to fly with the deck angle instead of horizontal.

Just remember it is not a car or a boat and then you're gonna be allright.

 

On 2 I would believe the engines of the rock do indeed react pretty slowly however

it might depend on which engine is installed.

Do note the HJG planes have all kind of different engine options

and particularly the early 727's will spool up pretty slowly.

It may also have to do with the fact HJG constantly update and improve on their 727

whilst the DF one is a mature product and some tricks could not be in the book yet when

it was released.

 

Your reverser question : the early 727's had a clamshellish reverser and it was later

changed to a reverser which was confined within the engine i.e you don't see a lot happening outside.

Some clamshell reversers were swapped for the newer ones as they also made a big difference in

noise and smoke output.

 

On three DF tell us :

I cannot set the speedbrakes / spoilers to automatic, so they deploy upon landing. When I try to set them, they actually deploy a bit. What is wrong?

 

Nothing is wrong. The real 727 does not have the ability to have the spoilers automatically deploy upon landing. You must acitvate them manually once you land. There is no notch for the speed brake handle for the auto position. This is where the 727 has something in common with the 707, and not the 737. ;-)

 

cheers

 

JP.

[Appliance]

Appliance, your Scotch...

:Party: :yahoo: :drinks:

[pschlute]

To add to the clamshell reversers. The DF 727 has many variations of the plane. 727-100 and 727-200, plus winglet versions of the -200, plus "super27" versions of both -100 and -200.

 

As JP advised, there is no visible reverser action just like the real plane on the main versions.

 

The "super27" versions have upgraded no. 1and 3 engines and these will display the clamshell reversers on reverse thrust. The no.2 engine reverse is disabled on these versions and this is reflected in the throttle quadrant too !

 

Peter

[Guest ram1220]

Just to add a bit to what others have said. The 3-5 degree AOA during cruise is normal for a real B727. Also from watching these birds at DFW years ago, mainly Braniff International B727's, They often approached the runway on final with a nose up pitch. The B727 still is my favorite airliner of all times. Now a days they all look alike with 2 engines on the wings. I miss how different looking each plane was back in the 60's and 70's. Kind of like todays cars. Look at them side on and they all look like they were made from the same cookie cutter. But that's another topic. LOL.

 

Bob

[HaraldG]

Hi JP, Appliance, Peter and Bob,

 

at first, let me thank you for your helpfuls posts. They did clear a lot for me.

At 1: OK, very realistic.

At 2 and 3: It seems that there is coincidence between spooling up a little bit faster and non-clamshell thrust reversers at a later B727-100, apparently represented by the "normal" DF B727-100. I then tested the DF Super 27, she does have clamshell reversers. Seems to be more realistic than HJG's, as I choosed their "late" version including appropriate panel and model versions but having clamshell reversers, too. Anyway, HJG 727 is of very good standard for a freeware plane.

 

I did not test any of the 727-200 models as I use the B727 not for simulating vintage air traffic, but rather as a kind of excentric private plane on my annual winter season world tour (at the moment in Bolivia and Paraguay, a natural habitat and preservation area for 727s nowadays). 727-200 is too big for such undertaking.

 

By the way, I second Bob regarding his opinion about historic planes. Look at my profile... I especially like Russian planes - you will find unique designs and procedures remindering to planes like 727 or 707. I heard of the Project Tupolev Tu-154 as a good model for beginners with Russian iron. Myself, I tried the SCS Tu-134, it even superseded the DF 727 in terms of simulated system depth. Quite hard for a pilot with only basic Russian language skills as I have, nearly impossible without such skills. I made nice flights with it in the CIS republics but after I had a complete engine failure 5 miles away from my home airport without finding the cause I abandoned it. Should do another try... But my alltime favourite plane is and will be of course the DC-6B!

 

I wish you all a happy New Year. May the years' change be so "eventful" as world's end eight days ago...

 

Harald

[kiwiflyer45]

I may have missed it above, but I'm not sure if anyone answered your question about windshield wipers Harald. It definitely does have animated wipers - and they do clear the rain as well. In 2D all you will hear is a rather loud noise, but in VC you will see them working. There is a single switch that works for both sides - two speeds. I don't have the panel open to look at right now, but you should find it on the overhead above the captain's head and slightly to the right. Four positions - park, off, slow, fast.

 

Cheers mate

Ian

[Fatback]

What is the purpose of the park setting in the real airplane?

[HaraldG]

Hi Ian,

 

thanks for your post! Indeed, I missed the wipers because I always fly in 2D mode. And I need to get more familiar with the left/right mouse button assignment system... "Park" obviously has no function, but "low", "1/2" and "3/4".

 

By the way Ian, you were right: The DF 727 is superb. Can't get enough of it. Seems as I have a third love beside my wife and my DC-6.

[pschlute]

If you have not done it already get the CIVA INS navigation system for the DF727. Do a search in the libraries for it...the author was "meatwater"

 

More realistic than using the default GPS for long flights

 

I have many modern planes with FMC and full function autopilot/autothrottle/FMC...but I still love flying this 727. getting the climb right and setting the correct thrust for cruise makes you feel like a real pilot !

[HaraldG]

Has this INS the possibility to connect with the aircraft's Autopilot so that the latter follows an inserted course? Or is it "just" another positioning system?

[pschlute]

The A/P will follow the INS route.

[CaptainAdlai]

What is the purpose of the park setting in the real airplane?

 

When the wiper is set to "off" is simply stops where it is. "Park" sets it back to the down position.

[HaraldG]

I tried the CIVA INS now but I don't bring it to work properly.

Problems already occur when I insert my actual latitude and longitude. After inserting the latitude (I have to push the "insert" button twice to accept my entry (?), the red warning light lights, I get error codes 006-41, meaning that A/C is not situated at the last calculated position. The manual says that this is caused by FS2004 environment, but it gives no solution for that. My coordinates are not accepted. That means that I can't go on further already at this point. (There was only one sudden exception that after many attempts I was able to insert the longitude, too, and to align the INS1. I tried with INS2 - same problem, many attempts without success.)

 

Very pity; INS would be a good enhancement to the B727 for my coming transpacific flights.

 

I have installed the "civa" folder within FS2004 main folder. In the DF 727 the energy supply is switched to APU. What do I do wrong? Any help is welcome.

 

Thanks in advance and best regards

Harald

 

EDIT: Think I have sorted it out. I thought "Insert" button light should switch off after inserting latitude only instead of switching off after inserting both latitude and longitude. Seems to align the values now...

[pschlute]

When setting the current position the insert light does not go out between entering Lat and Long. When entering waypoints it does. A quirk that the real unit displayed apparently.

 

You will always get the error code when loading a current aircraft location different from where you finished your last flight. Again this replicates the real unit. Just press the test button 3 times to remove the error code. The CiVA INS is probably the most authentic bit of kit you can get for simming. The manual is a straight copy of the real manual... it s that accurate.

 

Have a look in the library here for "conv2adeu". A useful utility that will convert a FS9 flightplan to adeu cards.... very handy for those long flights.

 

I use this INS in the 727; the Tinmouse 737-200; the RFP 747-200; and of course Concorde