Too fast and too high

[G550flyer 1,015]

I notice that FSX ATC will start you down early. Here is what I do to deal with the NGX. First thing is to understand that the FMC wants to keep you efficient. It will keep you high and fast to save on gas. In the real world, you won't do much VNAV in areas with lots of traffic. In my RW flying, ATC will either keep you up after the TOD or start you down early. In my current aircraft(5/550), I use the direct to altitude when I start down if i want to VNAV(honeywell). It's similar to the descend now. On the east coast USA, you have to constantly prompt for descent because they will start you down a couple thousand at a time initially. Use 4 times your altitude to lose to get a good idea of when to start. You have 2 ways to get down. One, you can modify the speeds along the descent or use intervention. Second is my technique. I use 2500fpm during descents. This ensures I get down quickly allowing me time to slow. As you get lower, you will have to add some speedbrakes to maintain the descent rate. At 13,000, I use 1,000fpm with brakes to slow to 240 passing 10,000ft. Once below 10,000ft i trade my brakes for flaps. I slow to 230 and use flaps 5. About 15 to 20 miles out from the FAF, i slow to 200 and use flaps 10. 5 miles from the FAF, I slow to 170 and use flaps 15. With this technique, I've never been too fast or too high. Give it a try and adjust to your liking. Big thing is to know your jet and stay ahead of it.

[g_precentralis 191]

If you let it "run into" the T/D it will almost always overshoot and spend about 2-3 thousand feet trying to get back on path.

 

I never experienced such problem. My NGX smoothly capture descend profile.

[por930 51]

Big thing is to know your jet and stay ahead of it.

Hi Rick,

A very important comment. These days at busy airports with traffic around peak times requires approaching a/c to monitor speed and descent very well. Recently, I saw an incident on Flight radar 24 and listening to LiveATC where a 744 freighter arriving from the US into YSSY was requested by Approach to drop down to 10,000 from 38,000 "when ready and reduce speed to 240 Kts ". Well, the guy got his sums very wrong as still zooming into Sydney area way too high and fast. Approach ended up having to make him do all sorts of gyrations up and down the coast line to lose altitude and speed before he could join the ILS approach pattern.

[CTBlankenship 36]

I got into a discussion with Jeremy Bucholz about the need for a descent calculator even when we have the VNAV profile for descent and approach. I maintained that a descent calculator is necessary, if for no other reason, but to compare and contrast the estimates with the VNAV profile and use that to update or even override VNAV when necessary.

 

I've been struggling with this as well and after researching Mike Ray's book and taking excellent advice from Southwest Virtual Airline pilots I've started this rough draft for descent and approach.

 

EMail me at © + (T) + "Blankenship" AT "gmail.com" for my Exel spreadsheet for descent calculator ... basically there are three components to calculating when to begin a descent: 1) Beginning and ending altitude 2) component of a head or tail wind and 3) beginning and ending speed.

 

I tend to like to group things into logical sections ... to me and for the descent ... I like to think first in distance and then (but not to a lesser degree) the speed and altitude targets for that distance.

 

The problem with trying to devise a step by step approach to this topic is that the requirements of ATC can throw all this out the window (VNAV) and require a combination of V/S, LVL CHG, SPD INV and ALT INV to meet their specificatioins. However, I've found that if I know, generally, the concept of the <Distance of Descent>, 30nm and 10nm circles around the waypoint (described how to do that below) I can keep the 737-800 in an acceptable energy state for final approach and landing.

 

Pre-descent Planning (20nm before T/D)

• At 20nm before T/D use the Descent Calculator to determine the distance from the airport that descent should begin (<descent start distance, DSD>).
  
• Press FIX on the CDU
  
• Enter airport ICAO into the scratchpad and select it into the FIX line
  
• Type /<descent start distance> into the scratchpad and line select that into the RAD/DIST line … this gives you a dashed green circle around the airport at the start of descent distance.
  
• Enter a second distance of 30nm (/30) using the 3 to 1 "gouge" we should be at 10,000 ft. to 9,000 minus airport altitude when you cross that circle.
  
• Enter a third distance line for 10nm (/10) … this gives you a visual clue at where the airplane should be at or below 3,300 to 4,000 ft.
  

 

 

• At 10nm before TOD press the DESC NOW option
  

Descent (Top of Descent - DED)

• When approaching the T/D … set the MCP altitude to the next altitude you are cleared to … when it comes time to descend, VNAV functionality will start the descent … If you have planned correctly, you can use VNAV until after the plane reduces to 250 knots @ 10,000 ft.
  
• Use the Pre-descent planning information to determine if VNAV parameters match
  
• When descending through 18,000 ft. (transition altitude) pressing the STD button on BARO and press "B" or enter what the ATIS says it is at the airport.
  
• Press the INIT REF to access the APPROACH REF page
  
• Select the desired FLAPS/SPD combination for the type of landing you want to make … notice this transfers the Vref into the PFD speed tape.
  

Descent (30 nm - 250 knots @ ~10,000 ft. to 9,000 ft. - Runway Elevation)

• Request airport operations and assigned runway.
  
• Press the DEP ARR button and select the APPROACHES from the right hand side. Select the STARS and TRANS from the left hand side.
  
• Enter the ILS Frequency into the standby windows of both NAV RADIOS
  
• Enter localizer front course on the MCP for both CAPT and FO (runway approach heading)
  
• Set the HGS controller options to runway altitude and length … press the ENTER button.
  
• Resolve any DISCOs … check for any crossing restrictions and enter them into the LEGS page.
  
• Enter the descent transition level by pressing the DES button on the CDU, press the FORECAST prompt.
  
• Set the AUTOBRAKES for landing
  
• Arm the automatic landing speed brakes Shift+/.
  
• Set landing minimums by clicking the MINS knob to RA … enter the value specified for the runway and type of landing you are attempting.
  
• If the outside temperature is less than 10C or the atmosphere contains visible moisture, turn anti ice on.
  
• Set ENGINE START switches to CONT (must do when anti-ice procedures are in effect)
  
• IF the airplane is not meeting descent criteria, below 18,000 ft. engage the LVL CHG or V/S option.
  
• IF not already in LVL CHG by the time you cross 10,000 ft. change to LVL CHG and set the speed to Minimum No Flap Speed … this is at the UP indicator on the speed tape ... if VNAV is still working for you then stay with that ... use SPD INV to enter Minimum No Flap Manuevering speed.
  
• Passing FL100 turn on the landing lights.
  

Descent (10 nm - Minimum Flaps Up Man. Speed @ 3,000 to 4,000 ft.)

• Set altitude according to ATC instructions or the altitude at which you will intercept the glide slope or the next restrictive altitude specified in the STAR.
  
• When the FMC reduces the airplane to flaps up maneuvering speed set FLAPS to 1.
  
• As you turn onto the final approach course, press the VOR/LOC button … this sets the autopilot to intercept the localizer while the LNAV is still engaged … You'll see the VOR/LOC in white below the LNAV in the FMA roll field.
  
• Manually move the speed knob to approach Vref speed plus 5 knots.
  
• When you reach FLAPS 1 maneuvering speed set flaps to 5
  
• Press the APP button when you acquire the VOR/LOC (localizer) … the WHITE arm indicator turns to GREEN
  
• NOTE: in the following steps you must set appropriate flaps settings as you approach the speed that corresponds to that flap setting on the speed tape … not doing so will induce "problems"
  
• Activate the CMD B button … both CMD A and CMD B should be lit. If they both do not engage, you have to abandon a CAT III approach and begin the CAT I approach procedures which require you to take manual control of the plane at AH (Alert Height) or DH (Decision Height). Disengage the A/P at about 100 ft. AGL.
  
• As you approach FLAPS 5 maneuvering speed set the FLAPS to 15 and lower the landing gear.
  
• You should be at the Outer Marker on HEADING and ALTITUDE when you hit a speed between FLAPS 10 and FLAPS 15.
  
• Set FLAPS to 30 once you hit FLAPS 15 maneuvering speed.
  
• Set FAPS to 40 once you hit the FLAPS 30 maneuvering speed (only if you are intending to perform a FLAPS 40 landing)
  

The following is a MS Word table that gives me the specifics I need to enter into the airplane as soon as ATC assigns a runway ... the data is for KCLT and KATL.

 

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Actually no, the throttles should place themselves to idle (autothrottle). The throttle position during decent should be fully back, but there's no need to grab them with your hand to get them there. (or press F1). If you have a throttle quadrant that you use for Flightsim, pushing it to idle isn't a bad idea to avoid control spikes from the hardware.

 

So...actually yes, then?

 

The guy asked a question, clearly related to his use of the sim and not the real aircraft. Since you can see the quoted post in my response, I clearly wasn't addressing the actual aircraft, which, you're right, does have servo movement in the throttles.

 

Your advice on the sim application isn't fully correct, either. If his AT override setting isn't one of the settings where AT always overrides the physical throttle position, you're going to have a hard time descending with your throttles still pegged wide open. As such, no matter what your setting is, you should move your throttles back to match whatever the simulated aircraft is doing.

[G550flyer 1,015]

Hi Rick,

A very important comment. These days at busy airports with traffic around peak times requires approaching a/c to monitor speed and descent very well. Recently, I saw an incident on Flight radar 24 and listening to LiveATC where a 744 freighter arriving from the US into YSSY was requested by Approach to drop down to 10,000 from 38,000 "when ready and reduce speed to 240 Kts ". Well, the guy got his sums very wrong as still zooming into Sydney area way too high and fast. Approach ended up having to make him do all sorts of gyrations up and down the coast line to lose altitude and speed before he could join the ILS approach pattern.

Yep, you have to know your jet's performance because ATC doesn't. They have an idea and many times will ask " what's your speed or rate of climb or descent". As long as you know your capability, you can easily state if you can or can't meet restrictions. Funny thing is that I've flown the DC-10-30 and I currently fly the G5/550. I've applied the same descent techniques from the DC-10 to the Gulfstreams. Both jets can only do 1500fpm clean and maintain 250kts. Any thing more and it will speed up requiring speed brakes or configuration. I never had to use speed brakes in either unless slam dunked by ATC. You can select 1300fpm at 13,000ft and they will be at 250 by 10,000ft. I never flown the 737 but here are some techniques from some BBJ guys i know who fly it RW.

 

Aircraft References

• Main Gear on your side: NESA Transmitter in lower outboard of

window

• Main Gear on Opposite side: Lower inboard corner of window

• Outboard Side of Engine on your side: Window Handle

• Outboard Side of Engine on Opposite side: Glare Shield bend

• Wingtip on your side: 2.5 concrete blocks

• Nose Gear: Inside of HSI

 

 

Engine Start (Approximate values)

• 2 -- 20% N1

• 4 -- 400 degrees EGT

• 6 -- 60% N2

• 6 -- 600 pph FF

 

Before Takeoff (LLLAASSTT Chance)

• L-anding Lights (tech: nose wheel light on when cleared for takeoff)

• L-adies (sit the FAs down with PA message to the back)

• L-ower DU display cleared

• A-utothrottle ARM (tech: when cleared for takeoff)

• A-utobrakes - RTO

• S-trobe lights ON

• T-errain (tech: Captain Terrain/FO Weather)

• T-CAS (TA/RA)

 

10,000’ check during climb out (FLAAPS)

• F-uel Pumps (Ctr Tank management per alternate operating

procedures)

• L-anding Lights -- RETRACTED/OFF (consider 18,000’ in high- traffic

areas)

• A-irspeed -- accelerate to desired climb speed

• A-PU -- Off/as desired for shorter flights/EROPS/WX

• P-ressurization check (Auto/pressurizing/cabin alt OK)

• S-eatbelt (double ding by going off/wait 1 sec/on then auto)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before Descent (AIRBAG)

• A-TIS

• I-nstall the Approach

• R-adio’s -- Tune and ID

• B-rief the Approach

• A-pproach Checklist

• G-o Around Procedures (How will the airplane fly it? HDG SEL, etc.)

 

Planned Descent Point

• Timing -- Approx. 10 seconds for every 100’ of altitude to lose

• Distance -- Divide HAT by 300’. This is the distance to start descent from the end of the runway.

 

 

Enroute Descent Path Planning

• Build a waypoint 40 NM track distance from the landing runway with

240/10000 inserted for Speed/Altitude. - AND/OR - Use the fix page and

put a 40 NM circle around the runway (or FAF) and plan to cross the circle at 240/10000 for a

straight-in arrival.

• When planning an enroute descent to radar vectors to final it can be difficult to determine how

far out you will be vectored and how soon you should begin your descent. Request a descent at a

distance that will

allow a constant 1500 fpm descent. To determine this descent point:

• Load the expected approach using the FMS DEP/ARR page

• Load the FAF or OM point/altitude on the descent page at 3R.

• You can monitor the V/S as you approach this point. When the V/S approaches 1500 request descent.

Even if the descent is not granted immediately, you will have a very good target descent rate when

ATC permits the descent. This technique provides a constant descent that mirrors our constant climb

to cruise profile.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Descent Profile

• 3.5:1 (Miles : Altitude)

• For every 50 Kts of wind +/- 2 Miles

• Losing 10 KIAS Takes 1 NM

 

 

10,000’ check during descent (10,000’ AGL for higher field elevations) (FLAAPS)

• F-uel Pumps (Ctr Tank management per alternate operating

procedures)

• L-anding Lights -- EXTENDED/ON (consider 18,000’ in high-traffic areas)

• A-irspeed -- decelerate to 250

• A-PU -- On/as desired/WX considerations

• P-ressurization -- set for landing field elevation

• S-eatbelt (double ding by going on/off/wait 1 sec/on)

 

Cat II/III ILS (ABCD)

• A-PU -- On

• B-rake Setting

• C-at II/III ILS Procedures

• A -- Approach Brief

• A -- Alert/Decision height callouts

• A -- Altimeter bugs (radio and barometric)

• D-epart runway plan (How will you taxi to park -- SMGCS?)

 

Before Every Approach

• “AAABBCC”

• A-TIS

• A-pproach loaded in FMS

• A-irspeed set in FMS

• B-rief

 

• B-rake setting (off, 1/2/3/Max)

 

• C-hecklist

• C-onfiguration (flap setting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• “CRAMPS”

• C-ourses -- set/verify inbound course on MCP for FP & PM

• R-adios -- set/verify correct frequency (ILS/VOR/Tacan/NDB)

• A-ltimeters -- set/verify QNH/QFE as appropriate through transition

• M-inimums -- set/verify for PF & PM

• P-ush -- APP mode (or VOR/LOC or LNAV or Hdg Sel)

• S-peeds -- set/verify Vref is set and displayed for flap setting

 

Engine Failure on Takeoff

• “4 Cs” (accomplished when flaps are up at min. maneuvering speed)

• C-hange (Level Change)

• C-ontinuous (Max Cont)

• C-rossfeed (with fuel only in wing tanks)

• C-hecklist (NNP then After Takeoff)

 

Single Engine Trim

• Trim into good engine is approximately equal to Fuel Flow

 

Single Engine ILS Approach

• At 1.5 Dots or later on the Glide Slope --

• Gear Down

• Flaps 15

• Reduce Thrust 10% N1

 

Non-ILS Approach (VNAV is preferred for straight-in approaches)

• 3 NM -- Configure (Gear Down/Flaps 15, Bug 15, Landing checklist to

flaps)

• 2 NM -- or sooner/Set Next Lower Altitude (ensure VNAV if using)

• 1 NM -- Flaps 30, Bug 30, complete Landing checklist

• 0.2 NM -- V/S As Desired (unless using VNAV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Touch and go/pattern work Missed Approach

Note: Assumes intent for complete flap retraction to missed approach

holding pattern.

• TO/GA (A/P will kick off under single-channel operation)

• Set Go-around thrust

• Set pitch to Go-around attitude

• “Flaps 15”

• Positive climb rate - “Gear up”

• 400’ AGL - “LNAV” or “HDG SEL” (Note: for Non-Precision approaches your probably already at/above

400’ AGL or very close if going missed from and DA/DDA/MDA)

• Retract flaps on speed

• 1000’ AGL - Set LVL/CHG or V/S + 1500’

• After Takeoff checklist (Ops Man)

Radar Pattern Climb Out From Touch & Go

• PF rotates aircraft to 15 degrees nose high

• Positive climb rate - “Gear up”

• Flight directors - ON (if coming from VFR Pattern OR Recycle)

• 400’ AGL- “Bug Up, flaps 5, LNAV or HDG SEL ”

• 1000’ AGL - Technique: "V/S, Set 1500 fpm" or "LVL CHG"

• Retract flaps on schedule to “Flaps Up”

• After Takeoff checklist

• Maintain flaps Up for downwind

Note: PF re-establishes A/P and manually arms Autothrottles

• PM rechecks weather, installs approach and helps tune nav radios (technique)

• PF briefs approach, tunes radios and calls for the “Approach check”

Precision Approach (use “CRAMPS” check technique)

• Arm APP if cleared approach on intercept heading

• G/S alive - “Gear down, flaps 15, Bug 15, landing checklist to flaps"

• G/S intercept - “Flaps 30/40 (final flap), Landing checklist” slow to VREF + additive

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Non-precision approach (non/VNAV)

• Arm LNAV or use HDG SEL for lateral maneuvering

• 3 miles prior - “Gear down, flaps 15, Bug 15, landing checklist to flaps”

• 2 miles prior (or earlier) - Set MDA or stepdown altitude in altitude alert window

• 1 mile prior - “Flaps 30/40 (final flap), complete Landing checklist” slow to Vref + additive

Note: Do not arm speedbrakes or use autobrakes if accomplishing a touch & go.

 

 

VFR Pattern Climb Out From Touch & Go

• PF rotates aircraft to 15 degrees nose high

• Positive climb - “Gear up”

• Turn off FDs if not already off (technique)

• 400’ AGL - “Bug 5, flaps 5” (technique)

• 1000’ AGL - PF lowers nose to 10 degrees pitch and reduces thrust (at Bug 5 speed) to

approximately 75% N1 (technique)

• PF levels off aircraft at 1500’ AGL or pattern altitude and maintains flaps 5 on downwind

VFR Pattern

• Enter downwind at flaps 5, speed Vref 30 + 40 (Bug 5 speed)

• VFR pattern briefing - "30/40 Flap touch and go, Speed is "

• Approaching abeam touchdown point - “Gear down, flaps 15, bug 15 Landing checklist to flaps” slow

to Bug 15

• Before turning or during turn to base - “Flaps 30/40, Bug 30/40 + (additive), complete

Landing checklist,” slow to Vref + additive

• Descend as required (approximately 600-800 VSI as a guide) Note: Do not arm speedbrakes or use

autobrakes if accomplishing a touch & go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Technique for Establishing Automation After Pattern Work

Note: Technique used should be pre-briefed. Assumes the "gear up" and

"flight

director’s - ON " is already called/done.

• 400’ AGL "Bug Up, Flaps 5; HDG SEL or LNAV"

• 1000’ AGL (or A/R) "Vert Speed + 1500’, Flaps 1" or "Level Change" (Flaps 1 above F5 speed and

then flaps on schedule)

• PF establishes A/P by selecting CMD and A/Ts -- ARM

[jaccorn 0]

20 miles before T/D down 2000fpm to transition alt+1000'. Slow to 250knts or less then continue decent as cleared.

 

Cheers

John Cornish

[Fabo 213]

I am gonna punch someone one of these days for suggesting any CI north of 30 is a problem.

 

So I will reiterate again. Folks, the airplane has been designed to fly with CI in range or 0 to 200. It can fly just fine at either and anywhere in between, and so can PMDG NGX.

 

Never for one minute think that you are seeing low numbers because the airplane cannot fly high numbers. There was a time when fuel was cheap and people were expensive, and you would be surprised how high the CI went to, and it was actually the most economical.

 

So, as a conclusion, once again, a high CI can not cause your problems, at worst, it makes them more pronounced. Therefore, using a lower CI is never the answer to your problems (well unless you are an airline, and your fuel bill is just too damn high, that is. But since fuel cost = 0 in FSX, one would use CI = 200 to be economical)

[Vagabondo 23]

There was a time when fuel was cheap and people were expensive, and you would be surprised how high the CI went to, and it was actually the most economical.

Just in my short time in the airlines, I have gone from using CI 100, to CI 10!

[Spin737 102]

I am gonna punch someone one of these days for suggesting any CI north of 30 is a problem.

Is it wrong to think threats of violence is refreshing? Love it.

[CTBlankenship 36]

• “CRAMPS”

• C-ourses -- set/verify inbound course on MCP for FP & PM

• R-adios -- set/verify correct frequency (ILS/VOR/Tacan/NDB)

• A-ltimeters -- set/verify QNH/QFE as appropriate through transition

• M-inimums -- set/verify for PF & PM

• P-ush -- APP mode (or VOR/LOC or LNAV or Hdg Sel)

• S-peeds -- set/verify Vref is set and displayed for flap setting

 

I have encorporated much of your planning into my own checklist ... thanks for taking the time to post. When you mention FP and PM above, what do those stand for?

[RichBowman 1]

Think it might be 'Pilot Flying' an 'Pilot Monitoring'.

 

Rich

 

Think it might be 'Pilot Flying' an 'Pilot Monitoring'.

 

Rich

[G550flyer 1,015]

Think it might be 'Pilot Flying' an 'Pilot Monitoring'.

 

Rich

 

Think it might be 'Pilot Flying' an 'Pilot Monitoring'.

 

Rich

Correct!!!!!

[G550flyer 1,015]

• “CRAMPS”

• C-ourses -- set/verify inbound course on MCP for FP & PM

• R-adios -- set/verify correct frequency (ILS/VOR/Tacan/NDB)

• A-ltimeters -- set/verify QNH/QFE as appropriate through transition

• M-inimums -- set/verify for PF & PM

• P-ush -- APP mode (or VOR/LOC or LNAV or Hdg Sel)

• S-peeds -- set/verify Vref is set and displayed for flap setting

 

I have encorporated much of your planning into my own checklist ... thanks for taking the time to post. When you mention FP and PM above, what do those stand for?

That's military type techniques for ya, When i was in the airforce we used plenty techniques to help remember every thing.