Trying to like X-Plane

[pryoski 84]

Well Kaboki, all I can say is that you're here on the X-Plane forum ... presumably because some part of you is weighing up which way you'll go in the future. That's fair enough.

I've given it my best shot and that's all I can do ... ultimately if you're not swayed that's absolutely cool with me. P3D might very well be the future for you!  Which ever way you decide, I wish you all the best and as a good friend of mine is often known to say, ... I wish you blue skies my friend :lol: !

[bonchie 2,305]

With the amount of freeware sceneries now available I could see myself getting into XP10 soon. The lack of airport buildings was the single biggest thing that's kept me from buying it.

 

Still waiting on a decent, viable and easy to use AI addon and ATC. The whole "plausible world" thing still bugs me but if everything else lines up I could get used to it I guess.

 

Is there a place where I can see "what's coming" in relation to this sim to get a better idea of what is planned to be fixed/expanded on and what is a development decision that isn't changing?

[pryoski 84]

It's not like there's a moral position regarding flight sim polygamy :lol: ... I'd recommend that people who are interested in finding out for themselves devote a little bit of hands-on homework with XPX while continuing to fly the bulk of their time on FSX or P3D. That way you'll assimilate things slowly at a pace that suits you ... there's no imperative that you need to know everything about XP right away.

Then one day, you can make an empirically informed decision ... but using the beta is just too limiting IMO.

[Dr Vesuvius 22]

 

 

Laminar are NOT clinging to the beta tag.  The beta's come in stages, but they ALWAYS precede stable release versions.  The updater gives you the option of taking part in the beta or not.  No one is forced to take part in the beta process.  

 

Goran - Let me see if I understand this correctly, because what you're saying is NOT the same as has been said previously.  If I buy a copy of X-Plane 10 from Amazon, the version I'd be getting would be a stable, production release?  I've then got the option of downloading the newer, development releases of the software by participating in the Beta programme?  And within the major version numbers (9, 10 etc) where will be a number of milestone releases that will be flagged as Stable?

 

THAT is not the same as saying "X-Plane 10 is still in Beta", as anyone with any knowledge of software development lifecycles will surely appreciate.  That is a fairly standard pattern for ongoing software development as you say and is something I for one have no problem with.  I strongly urge X-Plane advocates NOT to fall back on "It's still only a Beta" as a defence against comparisons with FSX, as it gives a very wrong impression. 

 

Pyroski, in your post which you've since edited, you originally said..

"As far as I can recall X-Plane has used this method for updating and enhancing their software since their inception ... and the fact that they do this has never been purposely hidden from the community as you're stating. Cheers!"

At no point did I state anything of the sort.  What I said was that when I pay full price for a piece of software, shrinkwrapped as physical media or the equivalent from a retail download store, then I expect it to be a stable, production release of the software, not an unfinished work in progress.  This is a general statement of principle for me, not specific to X-Plane and Laminar.  There's nothing on the X-Plane product page on Amazon to say that the product they'd ship to you would be a Beta version, and if that were the case THAT would be disingenuous.  Now Goran is indicating that it is NOT the case, then I have no problem with it.

 

Can I point out that I came to this thread with a neutral-to-positive viewpoint, looking to learn more about X-Plane with a view to eventually making the switch?  Someone defended X-Plane by describing is as "a new 64bit Sim just starting out and still in beta", a description which I queried and commented on.  Now though, I'm feeling a distinct air of hostility here, except for a few cooler, wiser heads.  I understand that the X-Plane community here feels somewhat besieged by some of the more vocal FSX die-hards, but guys... check your targets with that triple-A fire.  There's two ways people can come into the X-Plane community, and if anyone who currently flies FSX and comes here with questions or concerns is going to be labelled as hostile, you're going to wind up shooting down an awful lot of potential friendlies that way.

 

With the question of Beta-ness all but settled, I return you to your regularly scheduled bickering about flight models and plausible world autogen.

 

Respectfully

 

Dr V

[airlinejets 709]

If I buy a copy of X-Plane 10 from Amazon, the version I'd be getting would be a stable, production release?

 

Hi Dr V,

 

The copy you would receive would be the same one we got when we bought it. You need to download the updater before installing XPX. Place disk 1 in your hard drive, but use the updater to install instead of the CD1 installer. Basically, download the demo, use the updater and you're up to speed with the latest version, minus the global scenery and time-limited. The installer is the same for everyone, you can even take part in the beta with the demo.

[uwespeed 497]

In this post, I described how this "Beta" thingy is to be understood.

[Kaboki 437]

Well Kaboki, all I can say is that you're here on the X-Plane forum ... presumably because some part of you is weighing up which way you'll go in the future. That's fair enough.

 

Yes I might choose X-plane in the future B) I keep my my eyes on it, but I think it will take some time before I switch and that may depend on where Prepar3D ends up(and 3 partys). In this race to become the future sim....But right know FSX is still going strong in the sense that most addons gets realised for it. And that Is quite impressive considering it's an old dinosaur that got released 6-7 years ago..

[jcomm 5,939]

and that may depend on where Prepar3D ends up

 

It's a natural choice, specially when someone has invested considerably in the MSFS franchise. Unfortunately, appart from the revamped graphics, I believe P3D v2 will have exactly the same core flight dynamics model, if not for other reasons at least to ensure backward compatibility of add-ons. 

 

Then, I also doubt they'll do anything about the weather model / physics...

 

Finally, we all know almost for sure, P3D will be a 32 bit app. Not really a show killer, but...

 

So, all summed up, I have in X-Plane, a platform in constat evolution, giving me a very good flight dynamics model, even if some peculiarities, a very good (for me the best among all, including when used with external weather generators) weather physics engine, plausible scenery that I could easily adapt to the VFR areas I usually fly around in RL without spending a single cent, and a growing community of 3pds already devloping or looking forward for it, including a reference in the recent history of pc-based flight simulation - PMDG!!!

 

What more can I ask for?

[Boomer 1,619]

 

 

right know FSX is still going strong

 

Hence the dilemma:  hardware has caught up to FSX in that even with numerous add-ons, good FPS are now achievable.

[HighTowers 1,434]

Agreed with the above. Until we see a major shift, of big player developers moving over to another platform be it XPX or something else, and they keep supporting and developing for FSX, that is where its mostly going to sit. I dont personally see much hint of devs saying, we are stopping our FSX development now and will be focusing on XXXXX. However I think if someone had a secret sauce of finding a way to port over the great fsx addons to XPX then that would be a game changer. As it is now, going over to XPX you must invest thousands of dollars again in order to get just the scenery up to date as it seems fairly generic overall and is open to all kinds of airport and country addons. 

 

So yes XPX holds promise for alot, but I think after spending so long with FSX and investing so many dollars, the sentiment is that something like P3D comes through with some miracle of big improvements AND finding a way to at the very least move fsx addons over via some upgrade plugin if it ever gets to 64bit. 

[Kaboki 437]

Unfortunately, appart from the revamped graphics, I believe P3D v2 will have exactly the same core flight dynamics model,

 

From what I have read on their forums they said there has been some changes. They said a native Prepar3d V2 plane would not be backwards compitable with FSX because of some of the changes to the engine. What those changes are I don't know but It might be better flight dynamics....?

 

Also when they said Prepar3d would be backwards compitable with FSX scenery that would also go in favour of Prepar3d for me, from a budget perspective. It will mean that I don't have to start collecting the whole world all over again(It would also take the 3 partys some years to do that for X-plane)...wich will cost me...I don't even wanna think about it

 

But nevertheless, it will be exiting to see who takes over the throne when FSX dies(no it's not dead yet)

 

But this tread I think has got way out of topic a long time ago as the op's original question was some kind of support question where he asked with help on some issue with X-plane :lol: But I Guess it's all the "passion" we all have for flightsimming/aviation that caused it..and maybe the title "trying to like X-plane"

[JeremyWM 6]

Wow, I took a break from this topic for a few hours, and got really far behind on the discussion. There is certainly some impassioned and well informed opinions being exchanged. Awesome!  ^_^

 

So I should clarify what I was trying to say before. In mentioning the article in PC Pilot magazine a while back where a real world pilot tested the actual plane against the simulated one, and found it a bit wanting in the flight characteristics department, I wasn't trying to run down A2A Simulations' work at ALL. They make the my favorite add-ons for any sim, period! I own the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser with Captain of the Ship, the B-17, and the Spitfire, all with Accusim. There's nothing else like them anywhere.

 

The article was written by someone who, if I'm remembering correctly, has actually flown a real Spitfire, and the test was done against the A2A Spitfire with Accusim in FSX. He said that the physical modeling of the sim aircraft was amazingly accurate, the engine and systems modeling was superbly realistic in things such as the need for careful engine heat management, but the one area where it come up short compared to the real thing was in the flight dynamics. He said that the sim Spitfire was generally too stable and easy to handle comparatively. My point in bringing this up, again was not to disparage A2A's work. It is my opinion that A2A's Accusim aircraft features the pinnacle of what is possible to achieve in FSX in terms of flight dynamics realism.

 

Now, unfortunately I haven't seen an article done yet where a real pilot of a specific aircraft tests it's X-plane counterpart in the same way. I would really love to see what they would say. But, at least in my most humble opinion, I do feel that the X-planes flight dynamics best FSX's, even with an Accusim plane which I consider to be the most realistic available for FSX. As long as you're comparing similarly priced top tier add-on aircraft that is. That's one of the things that still bugs me about X-plane, is the lack of quality of the default aircraft. With Xplane 10 it has vastly improved over version 9 though. In 9 you basically got a handful of utter freeware trash with 2d-panels. Garbage in, garbage out as they say. This becomes problematic because whenever you hear from the most vociferously negative voices against X-plane, it's invariably from those who have only used the demo with the default aircraft and are comparing it to FSX with a mountain of quality 3rd party content.       

 

I have a few hours time in a Cessna 182 as the pilot in the left seat. I know the feeling as the plane takes off; the feeling of the aircraft picking up speed, becoming lighter and flitting around a little, and the wheels leaving the runway, the way it feels almost like some great hand has suddenly picked the plane up from underneath and lifted it into the air as the winds swirled about it. I have the Carenado Cessna 182 for X-plane. When I "fly" it, I am delighted by the similar feeling I get as the simulated aircraft catches the "wind" and lifts into the sim skies.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand here, I see many reasons to like X-plane as it is set apart in it's own way, instead of constantly bemoaning it for what it lacks versus FSX. I have both sims. When I get tired of one, I jump into the other for a refreshing experience. Right now I've been doing Air Hauler flights in FSX with my PMDG J-41, but I've been itching to get back into my X-plane DC-3 or the CRJ-200 for some FS economy time with X-plane.

 

I urge people to enjoy X-plane for what it is, and look forward to it's improving in the coming months or years. Some reasons to like X-plane is the flight dynamics fluidity, the HDR light and shadow effects, the excellent default textures for mountains, fields, farms, the accurate road networks, the amazing addon aircraft and now scenery which are being released all the time. Some areas that need improving? Yea, the default cities still suck, they often look ridiculous, the over zealous turbulence modeling is still a problem, the clouds sometimes look like cotton candy. There are issues, but they can and will be dealt with I think. A free OSM downloadable addition can make an immense improvement to the look of some cities, the free New Zealand scenery pack is an amazing example of what can be done with some work, and with each new version from Laminar we get a better iteration of an already great flight sim.  

 

To HighTowers; we've already seen this shift toward forward momentum for X-plane. No, there's aren't any companies which have been working with FSX as their primary platform, who have now shifted entirely to an X-plane centric business, but there has been plenty of cross-platform movement. The "secret-sauce" as you put it, is in people who are already knowledgable about X-plane development working with FSX developers to translate their products for X-plane. Carenado is the best example of this. The many fantastic add-on aircraft available from them for X-plane are mainly attributed to the work of Dan Klue and others who have been working with them to make their existing aircraft available for the X-plane platform. Aside from this fact, there is already some fantastic people and organizations who have from day one, been exclusive X-plane developers. Look at the amazing stuff from X-aviation, Felis who has been involved in the Yakovlev Yak-40 and AN-24 and the new Airbus 320 NEO, and for a look into the future see the jaw-dropping IXEG Boeing 737 classic. No need to think that you must invest thousands of dollars either. There is whole lot of great content available for free or low cost for X-plane. You could buy the FlyJSim 727 freighter on sale right now at Xplane.org for 25 dollars and download a myriad of free scenery and be in simulation heaven before you know it.                                  

 

                

[Kaboki 437]

Wow, I took a break from this topic for a few hours, and got really far behind on the discussion. There is certainly some impassioned and well informed opinions being exchanged. Awesome!

 

+1

Thanks for X-plaining your post appriciated B) Very informative and more in depth about the "feel" that we are all feeling

 

 

No need to think that you must invest thousands of dollars either. There is whole lot of great content available for free or low cost for X-plane.

 

For me personally it will be.. Freeware just doesn't cut it for me allthough freeware can be good. Im crazy and are hoarding the whole world for FSX and it will cost me and take some years before I could do the same crazy attempt in X-plane :lol: But that just me, Im quite an outsider of the "norm". My eyes hurt when I see default scenery..

[GoranM 3,772]

Goran - Let me see if I understand this correctly, because what you're saying is NOT the same as has been said previously.  If I buy a copy of X-Plane 10 from Amazon, the version I'd be getting would be a stable, production release?  I've then got the option of downloading the newer, development releases of the software by participating in the Beta programme?  And within the major version numbers (9, 10 etc) where will be a number of milestone releases that will be flagged as Stable?

 

THAT is not the same as saying "X-Plane 10 is still in Beta", as anyone with any knowledge of software development lifecycles will surely appreciate.  That is a fairly standard pattern for ongoing software development as you say and is something I for one have no problem with.  I strongly urge X-Plane advocates NOT to fall back on "It's still only a Beta" as a defence against comparisons with FSX, as it gives a very wrong impression. 

 

Pyroski, in your post which you've since edited, you originally said..

"As far as I can recall X-Plane has used this method for updating and enhancing their software since their inception ... and the fact that they do this has never been purposely hidden from the community as you're stating. Cheers!"

At no point did I state anything of the sort.  What I said was that when I pay full price for a piece of software, shrinkwrapped as physical media or the equivalent from a retail download store, then I expect it to be a stable, production release of the software, not an unfinished work in progress.  This is a general statement of principle for me, not specific to X-Plane and Laminar.  There's nothing on the X-Plane product page on Amazon to say that the product they'd ship to you would be a Beta version, and if that were the case THAT would be disingenuous.  Now Goran is indicating that it is NOT the case, then I have no problem with it.

 

Can I point out that I came to this thread with a neutral-to-positive viewpoint, looking to learn more about X-Plane with a view to eventually making the switch?  Someone defended X-Plane by describing is as "a new 64bit Sim just starting out and still in beta", a description which I queried and commented on.  Now though, I'm feeling a distinct air of hostility here, except for a few cooler, wiser heads.  I understand that the X-Plane community here feels somewhat besieged by some of the more vocal FSX die-hards, but guys... check your targets with that triple-A fire.  There's two ways people can come into the X-Plane community, and if anyone who currently flies FSX and comes here with questions or concerns is going to be labelled as hostile, you're going to wind up shooting down an awful lot of potential friendlies that way.

 

With the question of Beta-ness all but settled, I return you to your regularly scheduled bickering about flight models and plausible world autogen.

 

Respectfully

 

Dr V

 

V

What you have posted is pretty much dead on.  However, when you say there is hostility, well, speaking for myself, I have none.  I'm just a neutral guy watching the sim world unravel.  However, as can be seen by SpritFlyers post a little while back, it's not just X-Plane users who become frustrated at the same, repetitive complaints from certain people.  (The following is not directed towards you) The flaws in X-Plane are acknowledged.  But those same flaws really don't have to be pointed out in just about every single thread by the same people, day in and day out.

I think that's where you see the hostility come from.

 

EDIT:  If you have any X-Plane questions you need answered, but doin't think this thread is the proper place to post them, please, be my guest and PM me.  I'll be more than happy to answer them if I can.

[jcomm 5,939]

X-Plane is a delight to discover, at least for me. I'm rediscovering it right now, thanks to the new things that I found between when I left and version 10.21, looking forward for an even more stable 10.30, enjoying the excellent add-ons I have - culminated by the remarkable A380, and the AS350-B3 too.

 

I can only speak as a glider pilot, and in particular one that flew the AS-K21 (the one in my forum photo...) which happens to be the default glider in X-Plane10. I'm looking forward to tweak it a bit in Plane-Maker, try to find out more about how close to the typical polar of a K21 it stays, but overall I find it very plausible.

 

A true surprise, from when I left a few months ago to the present time was scenery. The new OSM European areas I have downloaded, plus the ortho scenery covering most of the Iberian Peninsula, Madeira and Azores Islands, etc, is simply amazing - and costs €0,00 + VAT

 

I look forward for a couple of add-ons such as the Saab 340, the updated versions of my Carenados for 10.30, more Peter buses, etc...

 

I am very happy, and this sim is givig me a hell of a good time ( like my medium range flights of the weekend :-)