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jtwhite

Trying to like X-Plane

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Laminar are NOT clinging to the beta tag.  The beta's come in stages, but they ALWAYS precede stable release versions.  The updater gives you the option of taking part in the beta or not.  No one is forced to take part in the beta process.  

There will never be a completely flawless flight sim.  Not even in the multi million dollar level d sims (seen the scenery in one of those?) and anyone claiming otherwise is kidding themselves.

The beta's in X-Plane are essentially new features or new tech that may not work on all the hardware out there.  

To re-iterate, no one is forced to download the beta release of an X-Plane version.  There are several stable version releases through each X-Plane version run.  

It's actually no different to an operating system that requires constant updates.  FSX and it's service packs.  Other developers and their patches/updates/service packs.  

Even NVIDIA have beta drivers before final releases.

And I would rather know exactly what I am getting into when downloading something new.  

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Just as I was getting to say it, Goran beats me to it!   :lol:

 

X-plane is NOT in a constant Beta form. It is not a perpetually moving target for developers. The people who constantly propound this theory that it is are not developers. Just ask Goran, as he is one of the talented people helping to make some of the best add-ons for X-plane available today. (Thank-you for the superlative DC-3!)

 

X-plane has stable versions released at regular intervals. In-between those releases, they push Beta's which are test bed's for new features, fixes, etc... You do NOT have to participate in the Beta testing. You can choose not to tick the box on the updater screen and just use the latest stable version. When you check the box, you are basically signing up to be a beta tester for Laminar Research. They are a very small team which is why they have the fantastic idea of utilizing crowd-sourcing in the flight sim community to do the beta testing.

 

X-plane 10 is a great sim. Yes it has some negatives and limitations, but any desktop simulation does. As for the flight modeling issue that LaDamson brought up, I just don't see it. I have many aircraft add-ons for X-plane and the only one that I have ever encountered that I had to trim like crazy and wrestle into the skies is the MU-2. This aircraft was my first  add-on for X-plane. I must have crashed it on take off about thirty times and cursed the air purple when I first tried to fly it. Then I took some time to research it and read the manual. The real aircraft is a notorious unwieldy crate to fly just like the sim one is! Yes the effect is probably exaggerated for the simulated plane, but once you know to trim it up and to use a smooth but firm hand at the controls, this aircraft flies beautifully.

 

I have been an FSX user since 2007. I have hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of add-ons for it. But, I've never seen the challenge of FSX to be in the actual flying of the aircraft. A2A Accusim aircraft, now perhaps with Accufeel which adds more fidelity to the dynamics, are the only add-ons IMO which give a sense of "feeling" of a machine riding on air currents. Generally in FSX the challenge lies in the proper procedures for working with the aircraft systems, developing a robust and accurate flight plan, etc...I remember a few articles in PC Pilot magazine where a real life pilot of a particular aircraft wrote a piece where he/she discussed how the real plane flies versus the FSX version and did some sim flight tests to determine the differences. In all of the articles, the pilot determined that the FSX flight envelope fell decidedly short of it's real world counterpart. Even the A2A Spitfire with it's amazing Accusim add-on was disappointing from a flight modeling perspective.     

 

Each sim has it's respective strengths and weaknesses. There are many reasons to like X-plane and we don't need the same derisive voices saying the same tired negative opinions every time we have a forum topic discussing it.                      

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Thanks for the explanation Goran & JeremyWM B) ... you both put it much better than I could.

I'm going to Evernote your posts so that I have it handy whenever someone brings up this old chestnut!


 

 

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I have been an FSX user since 2007. I have hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of add-ons for it. But, I've never seen the challenge of FSX to be in the actual flying of the aircraft. A2A Accusim aircraft, now perhaps with Accufeel which adds more fidelity to the dynamics, are the only add-ons IMO which give a sense of "feeling" of a machine riding on air currents. Generally in FSX the challenge lies in the proper procedures for working with the aircraft systems, developing a robust and accurate flight plan, etc...I remember a few articles in PC Pilot magazine where a real life pilot of a particular aircraft wrote a piece where he/she discussed how the real plane flies versus the FSX version and did some sim flight tests to determine the differences. In all of the articles, the pilot determined that the FSX flight envelope fell decidedly short of it's real world counterpart. Even the A2A Spitfire with it's amazing Accusim add-on was disappointing from a flight modeling perspective.

 

What I would be intrested to know is wether this pilot also had an opinion on X-plane, versus FSX in all this reality check, otherwise I consider It pointless in this context(differences in X-plane and FSX)? What makes is so harder to e.g do a landing in X-plane versus FSX... just curious.

Also I would like to know wether the pilot had flown the spitfire for real..since your comparing it and was the A2A Spitfire the plane he tested in the sim? More info on this "test" would help

And how was the X-plane Spitfire(addon?) compared to that?

 

If X-plane was not tested by this pilot, I think dragging good addons like A2A down is a bit unfair if there isnt anything else out there that do the job better(x-plane?) Just to make a point that you like x-plane... And would't FSX be closest to the real thing if he didn't make a comment on X-plane in all this testing?? 

 

xplain

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I'm a recent convert to XP10 and am swiftly becoming a huge fan. Scratch that, I'm already a huuuuge fan!

 

But I do think the grumbles serve a purpose and think we should have thicker skins about them. If Laminar see people continually complaining about the unrealistic urban autogen for example, then they're more likely to think "Oh, we really need to do something about that".

And although he's persistent, nothing LAdamson has said is rude or aggressive, and if he's right about the FM problems then I for one would like his voice to be heard until it's fixed or Laminar say it can't / won't be fixed.


i910900k, RTX 3090, 32GB DDR4 RAM, AW3423DW, Ruddy girt big mug of Yorkshire Tea

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Also I would like to know wether the pilot had flown the spitfire for real..since your comparing it and was the A2A Spitfire the plane he tested in the sim? More info on this "test" would help

And how was the X-plane Spitfire(addon?) compared to that?

If X-plane was not tested by this pilot, I think dragging good addons like A2A down is a bit unfair if there isnt anything else out there that do the job better(x-plane?) Just to make a point that you like x-plane... And would't FSX be closest to the real thing if he didn't make a comment on X-plane in all this testing??

 

Hi Kaboki ... I draw your attention to the pertinent paragraph ... and the fact that he's remembering an article :). Now talking about thick skins ... he wasn't IMO bringing A2A down ... he went on to say that each sim has it's strengths and weaknesses.

 

 

 


...I remember a few articles in PC Pilot Magazine where a real life pilot of a particular aircraft wrote a piece where he/she discussed how the real plane flies versus the FSX version and did some sim flight tests to determine the differences. In all of the articles, the pilot determined that the FSX flight envelope fell decidedly short of it's real world counterpart. Even the A2A Spitfire with it's amazing Accusim add-on was disappointing from a flight modeling perspective.

 

I'd like to offer small perspective here, in that people should expect that X-Planer's will give their view on why they think the sim of their choice deserves a place.

I think we also would like to ensure that new-comers realise that for the most part, these 'issues' that come up are either based on misunderstandings about what X-Plane is (and isn't) or are genuine issues that will most likely be attended to in some future or near future version of X-Plane.

 

So Kaboki, if you like you should follow on the research with the lead that's been supplied (article in PC Pilot Magazine) ... if you think it deserves a more in depth treatment. :)


 

 

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It has been a PITA for me to deal with my pickyness regarding PC-based flight simulators, but I think I have finally settled for X-Plane10.

 

Yes Larry is right in all of his observations, although I have pointed him similar limitations in the other platform too - I'm critic about them all - MS FLIGHT, FSX/P3D, X-Plane, Silent Wings, Condorsoaring, ELITE, DCS World.

 

Of them all I find that, by far the most detailed flight dynamics are those provided by DCS, but I confess that the sim is too complex for me in an area I'm not interested in - combat! Also, I need to simulate flying a GA or an airliner / commuter, somewhere in the Wold, with plausible ( OSM + Ortho ) scenery, and preferably flying aircraft with plausible flight dynamics. I find that all in X-Plane10.

 

I am sure that with his talent Austin will find the time to modify what he thinks should / can be modified. After all he did that with weather and wind gusts / variability when  arguments were carefully presented to him, and I find X-Plane10's weather effects way ahead of those of any other simulator ( excluding those specific for soaring and in the the strict are of thermal and ridge lift simulation ).

 

Above all, X-Plane has a future. I'd dare writing - X-Plane IS THE FUTURE!

 

Guys, I am sure R Randazzo knows what he says...  ;-), and he carefully chooses what he comments about anything interacting with PMDGs business...  Listening to his recent comments regarding cooperation with LR was the main reason I decided to give X-Plane10 a new chance, and I am glad I did - I was missing a LOT of good stuff!!!

 

A small story: one day last year, when I was already again involved in flight simulation and had started using X-Plane10, and already had started participating on some threads commenting the prop effects, I was flying a glider (this Grob 103 twin II Acro) out of Évora Aerodrome (LPEV) on a raher windy day. It was windy, but not turbulent. I smiled when during the tow I found myself using almost full aileron deflections to keep the glider aligned with the tow aircraft (a Rallye Commodore 180). I thought to myself - here's to you for keep talking about the absence of roll due to torque effects :-) - of course I know why it happened and the reason was the same that in the case of the tow plane even prevents it from rolling more due to torque from the prop, but there I was, rolling like the hell due to torque effects of a Prop I didn't even have :-)....

 

As I pointed out, and many did as well, there are SO MANY POSITIVE ASPECTS in X-Plane10 that they're certainly more than sufficient to overcome the "torque effects" :-) and, again, I do believe Austin has them the way they are for some good reason!!!


Main Simulation Rig:

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Glider pilot since October 1980...

Avid simmer since 1992...

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I have found my own way to overcome the torque bug, stopped flying single engine planes. Jets work great, twins and turboprops too with a little edit in Planemaker. I have one engine rotate left and one right. Takes me a few seconds to edit. Not realistic but very usefull. If I like to fly SE planes, I have an alternate simulator.

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I'd like to offer small perspective here, in that people should expect that X-Planer's will give their view on why they think the sim of their choice deserves a place.

 

I think we also would like to ensure that new-comers realise that for the most part, these 'issues' that come up are either based on misunderstandings about what X-Plane is (and isn't) or are genuine issues that will most likely be attended to in some future or near future version of X-Plane.

 

 

So Kaboki, if you like you should follow on the research with the lead that's been supplied (article in PC Pilot Magazine) ... if you think it deserves a more in depth treatment. :)

 

How can I do that, don't have PC pilot Magazine and no link to the article...?

 

I would still like to know what makes X-plane more "challengeing" and "real", and would know if that pilot in that article took X-plane into the equation when "testing" how close to real home simulators get, atleast when the poster start talkning about the test with this sentence.

 

quiote

"But, I've never seen the challenge of FSX to be in the actual flying of the Aircraft.".

 

I have a better question to the poster , do you consider X-plane to be more of a challenge when it comes to actual flying of the Aircraft? 

Im Intrested to listen and also xplain what makes x-plane more challenging.....

 

Im not against X-plane in anyway. I wasnt gonna get involved here but that post kinda triggerd me too ask some questions,,,not trying to be rude here or anything. But maybe the poster could explain he's intetions in throwing in A2A, realism, feel of actual flying of the Aircraft into the whole debate and that a real pilot commented on that it didn't feel "real".

After all where looking at a computer screen here and have joysticks made of plastic and some fancy physics engine,,,but how "Real" can it get...

And is really X-plane more real when it comes to flying the Aircraft???

 

If  X-plane wasn't in it why bother to mention this test at all in this discussion

 

To get "real" when it comes to fly the Aircraft I think many of us need to get the PPL and actually start some real flying....

 

And I would like the poster of the test to xplain.

 

And last, If I considered to buy xplane, could anyone of you garuantee me that X-plane would give me more challengin landings , takeoffs etc?

Bottom line is that is all I wanna know...thanks

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Fair enough Kaboki ... but I hope that jcomm or Jeremy can chime in here, for my perspective is based on a mix between what I've read from trusted sources and on how it ultimately 'feels' for me.

From the first time I used XP (was a very early demo versino ... 2? 4?) I was completely taken by the 'fluid feel of flight in the sim. It was like NOTHING I'd experienced in any sim of the day ... and still is the case today. That feeling that you get in the pit of the stomach when you first become airborne in the real world ... I get that same feeling when flying X-Plane. No other sim (bar DCS) replicates this experience for me.

I used to fly FSX and still have P3D on my PC, however P3D feels like a pale shadow in comparison ... now that's a VERY subjective opinion. I'm NOT a pilot and nor have I the smarts to present a cogent argument as to the why's and wherefore. I was a dumb grunt in my previous life ... so please remember that. I rely on the JComms and the Jeremy's and the Goran's, the Javier's of the simming world to ultimately form my opinions.


 

 

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From the first time I used XP (was a very early demo versino ... 2? 4?) I was completely taken by the 'fluid feel of flight in the sim. It was like NOTHING I'd experienced in any sim of the day ... and still is the case today. That feeling that you get in the pit of the stomach when you first become airborne in the real world ... I get that same feeling when flying X-Plane. No other sim (bar DCS) replicates this experience for me.

 

I used to fly FSX and still have P3D on my PC, however P3D feels like a pale shadow in comparison

 

I have tried the X-plane 10 demo and could't actually "feel" much more than I do in FSX, P3D, Flight, DCS, Rise Of Flight, CoD......

But maybe there is an addon plane in X-plane that makes me "feel" this better?

An maybe I have some "thrusted sources" that also tell me how to feel...I don't, I feel it myself..

 

Actually I "feel" better chosing all those others sims+FSX right now, literally speaking(for a lot of reasons I see irrelevant in this discussion because that would just open up this vs that sim, and It's not my intention here)

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Hey guys,

 

The 'sim versus real aircraft articles' were written awhile back the spitfire article iirc was written by 'Pilot' magazine contributor, Dave Unwin, but there have been a few articles which our own Chris fishmuth. All of these though predate X-plane 10's release by about a year or more.

 

As for flight models, well any addon is only as good as the data used to produce it. So a well programmed aircraft will fly great in any sim.

 

Best wishes,

Jess B

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The 'sim versus real aircraft articles' were written awhile back the spitfire article iirc was written by 'Pilot' magazine contributor, Dave Unwin, but there have been a few articles which our own Chris fishmuth. All of these though predate X-plane 10's release by about a year or more.

Then this test is irrelevant in this context..

 

 

 

As for flight models, well any addon is only as good as the data used to produce it. So a well programmed aircraft will fly great in any sim.

 

Agree...

 

 

I'd dare writing - X-Plane IS THE FUTURE!

 

:lol: How can you really know that, it could also happen that Prepar3D is the future...As of today I don't think anyone of us can predict that..It's like flipping a coin..and think you actually knows where it's gonna land..

I would depend alot on what platform the  majority of simmers choose, and most 3 partys would follow the biggest market... And a sim with little 3party support would still be the underdog..

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How can you really know that

 

I can't... just teasing... :rolleyes:


Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Glider pilot since October 1980...

Avid simmer since 1992...

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