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aceridgey

PMDG 777: Miscellaneous Questions

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Gentlemen it's been a while. Hope you're all doing well!

 

I wanted to ask a few questions I had myself but also provide a topic with all the small miscellaneous thread [i.e. not release date, and is the 777 going to be made for Fs9?] that can hopefully be achieved in one place, rather than hundreds of topics being made. If I can, I will add your question to this original post with the answer if possible.

 

 

My questions to the PMDG team/masses.

 

1) Anti Ice

The 777 has an auto-anti ice system. I was wondering with the inconsistency in drawing icing conditions within FSX, is this going to be a feature? How are PMDG modeling it?

 

 

2) EFB

Much has been discussed about the EFB in recent times, and as it stands I am unclear on the final decision regarding charts etc [which is expensive and difficult to have in the sim]. However, my question is, will a basic EFB be in the aircraft to simulate the takeoff performance pages for example? 

 

3) Early Manuals

This is a question I see all the time and not a question I am asking personally, I just want to stop the potential future dozen topics asking for this. Will electronic  manuals/tutorials be released before the aircraft?

 

A1) Helo_Head, on 12 Jul 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

I asked a while back about pre-release of the manuals in pdf and PMDG's Robert said categorically "no", due to copyright concerns with the extensive Boeing content.
 

 

4) 777-200ER

Where is the 200er on the release schedule? 

 

5) Fs2Crew

Q) Will Fs2crew be modelled?

 

A) Yes, it will be, although we cannot estimate how long it is going to take to finalise coding and finish the accent packs, it has been in the works since November 2012. We obviously need the aircraft to release so that we can get on board with the SDK. And no, we do not get the 777 early ;-).

 

 

6) Will there be a multiplyer option to increase the rate of service based failures?

 

A) Yes 

 

 

Gents-

 

We already added a feature that will give you a multiplier effect on service based failures.  It essentially works to more rapidly increase the amount of time you are putting on the airplane by a factor of, say, 2x, 4x, 8x, etc....

 

There is no plan to allow you to manually make the airplane "a certain age" however- as this wouldn't really do much for you anyway. 

 

 

That's all I have for now, I look forward to developing this thread further,

 

 

Regards,

 

Alex

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1. PMDG have said in the past that displaying the icing effects take precious polygons and the effects are negligible on modern jets. I don't know for sure but i'll say no it won't be visually displayed or will icing have any effect on the aircraft.

 

2. Nope. PMDG have said numerous times that they don't want a "glorified JPEG viewer". They have said occasionally it may be included later but licensing the data remains a significant problem...this may have changed and would be a nice surprise for release.

 

3. No idea, would imagine so.

 

4. In Beta testing..."only weeks away" is a direct quote from RSR, of course the heat death of the universe is also only weeks away. Don't expect any better answers on this.

 

5. Good to know, was this Q and A an advertising stunt for FS2Crew?

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[...]

 

5. Good to know, was this Q and A an advertising stunt for FS2Crew?

 

Of course not, I don't know why you would say that but ok.

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1. PMDG have said in the past that displaying the icing effects take precious polygons and the effects are negligible on modern jets. I don't know for sure but i'll say no it won't be visually displayed or will icing have any effect on the aircraft.

 

2. Nope. PMDG have said numerous times that they don't want a "glorified JPEG viewer". They have said occasionally it may be included later but licensing the data remains a significant problem...this may have changed and would be a nice surprise for release.

 

3. No idea, would imagine so.

 

4. In Beta testing..."only weeks away" is a direct quote from RSR, of course the heat death of the universe is also only weeks away. Don't expect any better answers on this.

 

5. Good to know, was this Q and A an advertising stunt for FS2Crew?

#4, in red, is incorrect. The 777-200ER may or may not be included. If testing and debugging continues to take a long time, they may actually place the -200ER into the base pack along with the -200LR, but that is unlikely.

 

The -200LR is the base pack. Some time after the -300ER WILL come out as an expansion pack due to it's similarity to the -200LR [same engines, same wing style, just a lengthening and weight/payload changes]

 

The -200ER is TBD really. It seems like it's likely but there hasn't been any official statement that it WILL come out. If they get enough public support for it, which enough to them could be much different considering most of their fans aren't involved in the flightsim community itself, then it will be modeled, but as I said, we're waiting for a decision.

 

As with #2, they said that it for sure will not be available at release, but it may be released later. I however am unsure of whether it will be a complimentary update such as with service packs or whether it will be an entire expansion pack itself.

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for efb feature of charts,you can use pdfkneeboard.dll (google it) and JeppView PC.jeppview is a program that jeppesen released for actual flying and more for briefing before flight(jeppfd-ipad is for flight).in jeppview you can print-pdf charts.i have both jeppview and jeppfd in my ipad and pc and i can print pdf charts you need(if iranair let me,i will ask them to make sure its not illegal to print them for other pilots-guys outside of iranair)!then you can use 'em in your fsx using pdfkneeboard!

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They have said occasionally it may be included later but licensing the data remains a significant problem...

Sorry, my english is not good enough, what do you mean by "licensing the data"? Aren't they all in the manuals already? What would prevent PMDG from making a EFB with this data?

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#4, in red, is incorrect. The 777-200ER may or may not be included. If testing and debugging continues to take a long time, they may actually place the -200ER into the base pack along with the -200LR, but that is unlikely.

 

Ah my mistake...I thought he was talking about the base package

 

 

 


licensing the data"

 

I don't fully understand myself, but i believe that the charts are copyrighted or require licensing before they can be used in another product.  Here in the sunny UK you can download them from free from NAT, perhaps that isn't the same everywhere, or that using them in the commercial product requires somebody to pay money.

 

 

 


Of course not, I don't know why you would say that but ok.

 

Because Alex there was no need to mention that within your questions, since you already knew the answer.

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the charts are copyrighted

Ok, now, I get it. I thought you were talking about T/O data. But talking about charts makes sense.

Thanks for clarification.

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(...) Because Alex there was no need to mention that within your questions, since you already knew the answer.

 

 

No offence intended, Ian, I think it makes sense to include the question for all the other people who'd ask anyway.

 

Why not just add the question about other crew simulations like MCE to make the 777 FAQ look even better?

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[...]

 

 

Because Alex there was no need to mention that within your questions, since you already knew the answer.

 

You have missed the point of my thread then. It is about answering everyone's questions not just mine .

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I asked a while back about pre-release of the manuals in pdf and PMDG's Robert said categorically "no", due to copyright concerns with the extensive Boeing content.

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No offence intended, 

 

None Taken

 

 


Why not just add the question about other crew simulations like MCE to make the 777 FAQ look even better?

 

Yes then Alex wouldn't have been able to answer it.  My point is that he was asking some questions from PMDG, then at the bottom <effectively> advertised that the product he works on is under way or being developed.  I don't have any issues with that at all, i was simply making a point.

 

 


You have missed the point of my thread then. It is about answering everyone's questions not just mine .

 

No i didn't as above, if it was "everyone's questions" then why not ask about MCE as Oliver suggested?

 

In any case, i am in no way upset by this, just seemed a little cheeky tagging that onto the end.

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I asked a while back about pre-release of the manuals in pdf and PMDG's Robert said categorically "no", due to copyright concerns with the extensive Boeing content.

 

thank you i will edit that in :)

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Guys, the issue is not that charts (talking about NACO - the FAA charts in the United States) require a license, it's a matter of aggregation.  The charts are provided by the government, free of charge.  The only way companies (such as ForeFlight) are able to charge you for this data is that they're providing you with the chart delivery and management.

 

Managing the charts would be a task of its own.  How are you going to get them?  You could certainly download them one-by-one off of AirNav, but you'd then need to convert them to whatever format the sim would accept (however PMDG coded it).  After your initial download of everything (which is an enormous task), you would then only need to add in and replace charts that are new or updated.  The FAA does provide a function to see this information, but again, it's quite a task to keep up with this on a...what is it...56 day chart cycle?

 

So, in order to ensure you're flying with current charts, you'd have to either do all of this yourself, or get someone to do it for you.  Most of those willing to do this for you charge money for it (and rightly so - they developed some system to get you this data for you).  This would require you to have a subscription to do this.  For reference, my ForeFlight subscription is a good $75 a year (and that program uses the free NACO charts - again, I'm getting charged for their method of getting the charts to me and managing that info for me.)

 

The EFB and the manuals comments should be (and are, as I read it anyway) separate issues entirely.

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Guys, the issue is not that charts (talking about NACO - the FAA charts in the United States) require a license, it's a matter of aggregation. The charts are provided by the government, free of charge. The only way companies (such as ForeFlight) are able to charge you for this data is that they're providing you with the chart delivery and management.

 

Managing the charts would be a task of its own. How are you going to get them? You could certainly download them one-by-one off of AirNav, but you'd then need to convert them to whatever format the sim would accept (however PMDG coded it). After your initial download of everything (which is an enormous task), you would then only need to add in and replace charts that are new or updated. The FAA does provide a function to see this information, but again, it's quite a task to keep up with this on a...what is it...56 day chart cycle?

 

So, in order to ensure you're flying with current charts, you'd have to either do all of this yourself, or get someone to do it for you. Most of those willing to do this for you charge money for it (and rightly so - they developed some system to get you this data for you). This would require you to have a subscription to do this. For reference, my ForeFlight subscription is a good $75 a year (and that program uses the free NACO charts - again, I'm getting charged for their method of getting the charts to me and managing that info for me.)

 

The EFB and the manuals comments should be (and are, as I read it anyway) separate issues entirely.

I don't think it would be that big an issue, if you're going to use a chart, you're going to download it and print it off anyway, so putting it into the aircraft would be no more taxing than printing provided the conversion wasn't time consuming.

 

You're only downloading the ones you know you're using, it's not like manually maintaining a nav database in the FMC.

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I don't think it would be that big an issue, if you're going to use a chart, you're going to download it and print it off anyway, so putting it into the aircraft would be no more taxing than printing provided the conversion wasn't time consuming.

 

If that works for you, then great, but that won't work for many people.

That data is going to need to be in there before the sim is started, so you'd need to:

 

-Download every possible chart for the airport you're flying into

(you don't know what approach you're going to get assigned, and you don't know if the weather is going to change drastically in the routinely longer legs of the 777)

-Convert all of those charts

-Put them in the proper folder

...all before even starting the sim.

 

In the case of IAD, that's 18 charts for the ILSs alone.  Add in the RNAVs and you have 11 more.  Then, the next time you fly into IAD, you'll have to double check you have the right charts, because you're not going to want to download them again and convert them.

 

If you don't mind the repetition of that task, then you have more patience than most, but in the end, you're going to blow a lot of time.

 

 

 

I'll put it this way:

If it came down to "in order to use the EFB's charting feature, you have to do all this on your own," there's no way in [heck] that I'd end up using it.  Using an in-sim EFB for charts is somewhat of an insane proposition anyway (too small and impractical to use), so I'd end up using the EFB I use when I fly RW anyway.

 

Why?

 

Because it's all there, right now, with current charts - guaranteed.  No work necessary.  I already have to go find a current route, load the plane, and get a good fuel plan before departing.  I don't need to add the logistics of dealing with charts and currency to that.

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I'll put it this way:

If it came down to "in order to use the EFB's charting feature, you have to do all this on your own," there's no way in [heck] that I'd end up using it.  Using an in-sim EFB for charts is somewhat of an insane proposition anyway (too small and impractical to use), so I'd end up using the EFB I use when I fly RW anyway.

 

Why?

 

Because it's all there, right now, with current charts - guaranteed.  No work necessary.  I already have to go find a current route, load the plane, and get a good fuel plan before departing.  I don't need to add the logistics of dealing with charts and currency to that.

 

I still manually download all my charts anyway, i don't own a second pc, laptop or tablet pc so I have to print them all off to use them. I'm sure this is true of a vast percentage of the potential customers of the PMDG 777, so it's not any more work than it would otherwise be. I assume it is too much effort for you because you don't print them off and display them on your own EFB program running alongside FSX? This isn't the case for a large amount of people so to say it's useless putting the EFB in the PMDG 777 is a worthless statement.

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I'm sure this is true of a vast percentage of the potential customers of the PMDG 777, so it's not any more work than it would otherwise be.

 

It would be, though.

 

It's not:

<Click on Each Chart to Open in New Window> - repeated task

(don't even have to download/open as a separate process)

<Click Print for Each> - repeated task

(The printer then manages that queue - it's handling that load - not forcing you to wait for each to print)

 

While it's printing, I can then launch the sim and let it do its thing in the background.

 

It's:

<Click on Each Chart to Download> - repeated task

(Must wait for the download, though the downloads may overlap, your download speed is cut with each)

<Open Each Chart to Save As Different File Type> - repeated task

(Must wait for Each Chart to Convert Before Moving On)

<Move All Charts to Required Folder> - bulk task

 

All of this must be complete by the time I go to load the sim.

 

...later on, you must either waste a ton of energy redoing that task, or develop some form of organization for yourself to notify you that the chart is still current, or is expired.  I imaging you waste a ton of paper by simply printing out new charts every time.  That, or you end up just flying with an expired chart until you think to print a new one.

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I'd be perfectly happy doing that. Isn't that hard. Download speeds are good here and a batch conversion tool supplied by PMDG would facilitate fast converting. You could just do it a few days before a flight like I do, i'm sure you aren't busy every waking minute of the day.

 

I suppose you also have a program installed to fly the plane for you while you're in another part of your house doing these critical time consuming tasks you seem to have?

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Download speeds are good here and a batch conversion tool supplied by PMDG would facilitate fast converting.

 

Your argument hinges on them going out of the way to provide this for you, or somehow make this a requirement to use this feature.  I really don't see them stepping aside from what they're good at to try and code a batch converter so that you can use a marginalized chart, on a tiny screen, in the sim.  Additionally, they've mentioned that they will not make a feature dependent on buying another program to make it work.

 

 

 


You could just do it a few days before a flight like I do, i'm sure you aren't busy every waking minute of the day.

 

This is correct, but it will still take more time to download and convert charts, while ensuring efforts are not duplicated, than I'm willing to give.  Additionally, even if one were okay with the duplication of effort, it would still take more time to download, convert and move than it would to click print and move on.

 

If you're looking for me to provide proof, consider this:

It is legal for a GA pilot to print off charts from FAA.gov and use them.  The success of ForeFlight, Garmin Pilot, and other pilot apps providing chart reference indicates that this method is undesirable, however.  Even if they don't print the charts out, they likely subscribe to either NACO or Jepp services to deliver new ones to keep them up to date.  Ask any GA pilot what they do.  I'd argue you're not going to hear very many who use your method.

 

Why?  Workload.  It's easier to pay someone else to keep that info sorted for them.

 

 

 


I suppose you also have a program installed to fly the plane for you while you're in another part of your house doing these critical time consuming tasks you seem to have?

 

Yes.  The autopilot.  I actually get quite a lot done while at cruise.

 

To put it a different way, I could just as easily hand-copy my charts in Adobe Illustrator and dump them into some type of acceptable format, because I have the time some days.  I just feel that my time is better spent doing other things...like not having to bother with charts.

 

That's the whole premise of a trade-based society:

People trade for what they either have no time for, or prefer not to do.


Disclaimer:

My primary purpose at one of my jobs is to reduce duplication of efforts, and make the business more efficient.

 

I get paid to get upset about redundancies and eliminate them.

 

In this case, however, I wouldn't be getting paid to deal with this issue.

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Could we perhaps discuss the chart issue on another thread it has the risk of going off track :) 

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2. Nope. PMDG have said numerous times that they don't want a "glorified JPEG viewer". They have said occasionally it may be included later but licensing the data remains a significant problem...this may have changed and would be a nice surprise for release.

 

 

PMDG T777 and NO EFB? Are you kidding me? That was unexpected .. Let us hope they make it !

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EFB won't add complete realism anyway. Even the rich airlines like Emirates are getting their new 300ER's and LR's without EFB's and using the portable EFB option. Soon to be iPad for charts once they get the approval. The Boeing version is a pretty expensive customer option.

 

Assuming TopCat add the 777 which I highly doubt they won't - will be a fairly realistic piece of software to use alongside, just like it is now with other addons such as the NGX.

 

The LIDO charts look excellent on the real EFB I must say - they're even customisable! Makes Jeppesen look like they're still stuck in the 1990's (-;

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Guys, the issue is not that charts (talking about NACO - the FAA charts in the United States) require a license, it's a matter of aggregation.  The charts are provided by the government, free of charge.  The only way companies (such as ForeFlight) are able to charge you for this data is that they're providing you with the chart delivery and management.

 

The other problem is that the United States is probably the only country where government works are excluded from copyright protection. 

 

In most other countries, the AIP is protected by copyright. I know for a fact that when you access the Australia AIP electronically, there is a thousand word copyright warning that you have to accept prior to access. To compile a worldwide database of AIP charts would require licenses from over a hundred national aeronautical information services. This is not to mention that some states seem produce charts with abysmal ergonomics and readability (who wants an A4-sized SID  chart drawn to scale with an incredible amount of information overload?), seemingly assuming that everyone is just going to use Jeppesen.

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EFB probably will not happen unless we can work a deal with a commercial navdata provider for both chart and ground/airport data. The idea that we're going to ad-hoc a bunch of charts together for it every month from free sources is not workable. There are limitations here guys, PMDG is not a billion dollar company with infinite resources to spend on something like this - this data is *extremely* expensive for the real world airplane and real world full flight simulator facilities.

As someone above said too - there are probably more 777s without the EFB now than there are with them. United, American, Delta, Emirates, Cathay etc - all of them have aircraft without it. This type of device appears to be going the way of things like dedicated auto GPS units - replaced by newer and more portable technology like iPads and other tablet devices. What would you pick if you were in management at an airline - an extremely expensive manufacturer option that's unlikely to get significant software upgrades and features, or a $500 iPad (probably far less than this if they're getting an Apple volume discount, which I'm sure they are) that can be upgraded and added onto practically to infinity?

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