Can PMDG work with HiFi to bring us a working weather radar?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Do you really see no chance that it might be "real" in newer A/Cs as an option or generally in the NEO series?

 

You generally don't see changes like that unless they're absolutely necessary.  The 320 versus 320neo will be operated by the same crews under the same type rating.  As such, you would not want to have pilots getting used to trim being announced (either the old way like DC/MD did - "STABILIZER MOTION" - or through other audible means) in one model, getting into another model, expecting to have those same indications.  It's not a huge deal, but if you're relying on it as an indicator in an aircraft that doesn't have it, you're opening yourself up to issues.  It's a similar argument to why SWA operated its NGs with the Side-by-side displays for so long: consistency.

[FLEX1978 373]

Hi Claus,

 

It's definitely not an airline option. They also included the PTU sound from the flight deck which is also incorrect.

 

Could it be implemented on the NEO's? I couldn't tell you for certain but I would be very surprised if it was. I have a friend in Bahrain that was looking to purchase one for his company, I guess I could ask him. perhaps you could ask the guys at Aerosoft.

 

Apologies for the thread drift, just got me curious now

 

Cheers

[vr-pilot 11]

perhaps you could ask the guys at Aerosoft.

 

 

Hi Rob,

 

I just checked their forum and there are at least two threads dealing with trim behaviour and sound. The common opinion there is that a trim noise makes no sense, although there is no comment from "officials" on that.

These two threads are from AUG/OCT 2013. "olli4740" was one last poster and said that the trim audio file should actually be a "silent sound file user mod".

So no word about a special or "NEO" feature...

 

Anyway: regarding the NGX a similar synchronous timing for the trim sound would be fine... B)

 

 

You generally don't see changes like that unless they're absolutely necessary.

 

 

IMO audible trim actions could have saved already many lives over the last decades... It is actually THE core part of A/C control and no A/P should be allowed to "keep some secrets". 

 

 

 

Greetings,

Claus

[kevinh 409]

IMO audible trim actions could have saved already many lives over the last decades... It is actually THE core part of A/C control and no A/P should be allowed to "keep some secrets".

Yes but imagine it from the poor pilot's point of view. You would have audible warnings going off every time the system behaves normally (i.e. the AP or FBW moves the trim). This would soon lead to pilots mentally filtering out the information provided, and so making the sound a useless annoyance.  The stab in motion sound is intended to warn of abnormal trim behaviour, i.e. rapid or sustained trim motion.

 

The AP isn't keeping secrets, it's doing its job quietly (but still visibly as the trim wheel is still there to be seen moving).

 

Which accidents do you think would have been prevented by a stab motion alert?

[vr-pilot 11]

 

 

Which accidents do you think would have been prevented by a stab motion alert?

E.g. in the case of Air France AF 447 (2009) a classical "stabalizer out of trim" warning could have helped. There were many other items, but regarding A/C, A/P and cockpit design this accident is really sad.

Another example but actually a quite similar accident is the WEST CARIBBEAN AIRWAYS WCW 708 (2005), where A/P flew the A/C into a stall.

A third example is Colgan Air Flight 3407 (2009): A/P holds altitude until stick shaker. 

 

So on every occasion where airspeed gets low (due to icing, high climb requests, high altitude and GW, power degradation because of EAI+WAI and respective combinations) and A/P tries to hold altitude or rates of climb (SOT=speed on thrust), the "silent" trim wheel gets a real killer.

 

Greetings,

Claus

[kevinh 409]

E.g. in the case of Air France AF 447 (2009) a classical "stabalizer out of trim" warning could have helped. There were many other items, but regarding A/C, A/P and cockpit design this accident is really sad.

Another example but actually a quite similar accident is the WEST CARIBBEAN AIRWAYS WCW 708 (2005), where A/P flew the A/C into a stall.

A third example is Colgan Air Flight 3407 (2009): A/P holds altitude until stick shaker. 

 

So on every occasion where airspeed gets low (due to icing, high climb requests, high altitude and GW, power degradation because of EAI+WAI and respective combinations) and A/P tries to hold altitude or rates of climb (SOT=speed on thrust), the "silent" trim wheel gets a real killer.

 

Greetings,

Claus

At best a trim in motion sound is an additional indication to the crew something is wrong. But the lack of it isn't a killer unless there is no other indication of the incorrect attitude and low speed. In AF447, for example, the crew knew already that something was wrong, but not what to do about it. WCW708 was an MD-82 which has a stab in motion aural warning. Clearly it didn't help. As with AF447 the pilot maintaining back pressure in a stall was the ultimate cause. In Colgan 3407 the crew ignored stick shaker and pusher, much more direct warnings than elevator trim motion sounds. Fatigue was a significant factor. I agree that a trim in motion sound might have alerted them to the decreasing airspeed earlier, but if they were properly monitoring airspeed (a basic airmanship requirement) then they wouldn't have got into a stall either.

[FLEX1978 373]

Have to agree with Claus regarding AF447, full NU trim (even if pilot induced) should give some sort of warning in flight. Same deal with a stall warning below 60 knots, highly unlikely anything would be done to change it, nobody should be getting an airliner into that kind of situation in the first place.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

IMO audible trim actions could have saved already many lives over the last decades... It is actually THE core part of A/C control and no A/P should be allowed to "keep some secrets".

 

Note the angle I took.

 

I didn't say that it was useless, or wouldn't save lives.

 

I said that the difference between aircraft models - that would be flown by the same crews - could lead crews into a false sense of security.  If they flew the model that had the audible trim notifications earlier, and then went to the model that did not, they could think everything is fine, when in reality, the trim is running away.

 

It's an extreme situation, but again, aviation does heavily involve human factors, and disparate aircraft equipage (and equipage not in line with human factors) has caused its own crashes as well.

 

I experience it all the time with the aircraft I fly.  This one has DME, that one doesn't; that one has a G/A button (in a 172...yeah...what?), that one doesn't; this one has SVT, that one doesn't.  I can't tell you how many times I forget to flip the STBY BATT switch on the G1000s until I run the paper checklist after my mental checklist.

 

Why?  Disparate aircraft equipage in the same fleet.

[vr-pilot 11]

In AF447, for example, the crew knew already that something was wrong, but not what to do about it.

 

But I don't remember they mentioned their stabalizer position on the CVR...

They just were questioning themselves "what is happening here".

Maybe it is also a problem of airlines regarding disengaging the A/P or A/T as a kind of "abnormal flight".  So pilots probably refuse to fly manually although they would actually perform better.

 

AF447, full NU trim (even if pilot induced) should give some sort of warning in flight.

 

+1: Could have provoked some serious action by the crew. If it would have changed something? Nobody knows.

 

 

 - could lead crews into a false sense of security.  If they flew the model that had the audible trim notifications earlier, and then went to the model that did not, they could think everything is fine, when in reality, the trim is running away.

 

 

That is true, because relying or even waiting for warnings or automation to take action can not be the right way to improve the man/machine interface.

That is what I actually like about the trim noise in the B737, as it is just "easy to use".

 

Greetings,

Claus

[johnk51 2]

iFly is going to have a weather radar for their 737 that will work with ASN.  From the screen shots they've posted it looks nice.  They said sometime in February it should be released.

[squerble 300]

No trim sounds on the A320Neo family, nor even the A320-E family - would be a daft move to change now for the many reasons people have brought up in the last few posts.

[B747tebs 80]

hmm from weather radar to A320 trim.. interesting

[squerble 300]

Getting back on topic, I'm very interested to see what developers may be able to introduce in the future now that ASN is on the scene. I only did one flight with the trial and then bought it, and I think a lot of people had a smiliar experience.

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

Aerosoft have stated recently they will bring up a wx radar for their upcomging A318/319, that works with all wx engines (this was stated when they were fully aware of ASN and iFly's integration already).

 

I have no idea at all how to interpret that ...

[Fabo 213]

That it will be a bunch of pretty colors in random places.