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koala63

Why no more MD-11 in the real world?

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Hello guys :)

 

I fly this plane since more one year, i tested the 737NGX and the newer 777 and... i like too but for me they are not better than my favorite MD-11  :P

On ivao network, with so many weather condition and ATC restriction, i do only one go around because i was unable to see the runway at my MDA alt in winter.I think this is great plane and secure plane too.

 

 

I don't know well the story of the MD-11, just he does his first fly on 1990 and when boeing bought Mcdonnel Douglas they don't follow the livreries.So i think this plane isn't a lucky plane.He is more newer in technologies navigation than the young 777-200.So can anyone explain me with précision the true story of this great plane?  ^_^

 

 

Thanx a lot

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I heard the Md11 is not as economical in regards to fuel economy as the 777. The ability to cut fuel will make a carrier stop using the MD11.

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I heard the Md11 is not as economical in regards to fuel economy as the 777. The ability to cut fuel will make a carrier stop using the MD11.

 

 

It will be good to show difference between the 744 and MD-11 on the same fligt, using the same flight plan.

 

 

 

FedEx Express still flies 64 MD-11 aircraft (source: Wikipedia)

 

 

UPS and lufthansa has got a MD-11 fleet too but KLM retired all the MD-11 :( 

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just he does his first fly on 1990 and when boeing bought Mcdonnel Douglas they don't follow the livreries

 

The MD-11 faced internal competition with the 777. Boeing made the decision to end the M11 production line because of that reason. The 777 was selling and the M11 wasn't.

 

 

 


So i think this plane isn't a lucky plane.

 

That third engine (more expensive with maintenance and fuel costs) and the lackluster performance numbers really sealed the M11's fate. McDD intially advertised that she could compete with the longer range 777s, but she wasn't and SIA cancelled their orders and AA (or FX or DL) grounded theirs until McDD came up with the performance upgrades.

 

 

 


He is more newer in technologies navigation than the young 777-200

 

Actually, the 777 has newer technology.

 


It will be good to show difference between the 744 and MD-11 on the same fligt, using the same flight plan.

 

I think the 747 and M11 can carry approximately the same payload almost the same distance.

 

 

 


KLM retired all the MD-11

 

Actually, I believe they pushed back the last retirement until later this year into next year.

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Just for the record KLM is currently operating MD-11s from Amsterdam to Los Angeles, Montreal and Toronto. I believe they are the last airline using the MD-11 in passenger service but there are many using them for cargo.

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I just saw one the other day into Toronto but it was the KLM Cargo version, not pax.

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The MD-11 faced internal competition with the 777. Boeing made the decision to end the M11 production line because of that reason. The 777 was selling and the M11 wasn't.

 

The problems for the MD-11 began long before the merger because the original MD-11 could not meet range and fuel burn guarantees.  Some orders were cancelled and even though the performance shortfall was eventually recovered the damage was done and sales remained poor.  The failure of the MD-11 was part of the reason McDD ceased to be competitive and sought a merger with Boeing.  There was no real point in continuing with the passenger version after the merger, given the success of the 777, but the freighter had no direct competition so production was continued for a while. 

 

Uncompetitive as a passenger aircraft, it's still a great freighter and will no doubt remain flying in that role for many years.

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MD-11F and 747-400F are very close in payload vs. range, with the MD-11 actually requiring less fuel to do it (3 vs. 4 engines - the equation works both ways! :lol: ).

 

Now the 747-8F is available it would be a different story.

 

The big killers of the aircraft were its wings (too small) and engines (higher than expected fuel burn). The design concept of the MD-11 was reduction of drag vs. the DC-10, which worked, but the LSAS became a liability, resulting in the loss of several airframes.

 

I've always wondered if the fate of MD and the MD-11 was sealed after the loss of SR111. There was a big deal back then about insulation blankets and capton wiring, which the MD-11 used extensively (so did Boeing and several other manufacturers but that seemed to make little difference).

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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The issue is that the Md-11 is basically a re-engined DC-10 with a glass cockpit so the basic design is nearly 50 years old. Aircraft design has come a long way in that time I recall hearing that the Md-11 has more drag on one wing then the 777 has on the entire airframe which means it burns alot more fuel. Also from what I hear from some pilots of the Md-11 it isn't a very good plane and I think that has to do with adding new tech to (at the time of its build) a nearly 30 year old design.

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I just saw one the other day into Toronto but it was the KLM Cargo version, not pax.

KLM 691 seems to be a passenger flight to Toronto that alternates between an MD-11 and an A330. KLM 31 ins another MD-11/A330 flight to Toronto.

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I flew on a World Airways (former Delta) MD-11 back in 2006, and had a long chat with one of the pilots.  The short story is that it never met the fuel burn promises, which were already inferior to the 777 to begin with.  Twin jets are going to be the general preference because of the savings, except for routes where ETOPS is not possible, in my opinion.  I enjoyed the challenges of flying the MD-11 wiht the great PMDG version.

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Also from what I hear from some pilots of the Md-11 it isn't a very good plane

 

I know it is twitchy in pitch, a PITA at cruise (VERY sensitive), and oscillates on approach, BUT finesse as a pilot should solve those.

 

Unfortunately MSFS is far too stable, especially in cruise. Flight controls have the same feeling at FL400 as they do at 1000 ft, which is totally wrong.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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The issue is that the Md-11 is basically a re-engined DC-10 with a glass cockpit so the basic design is nearly 50 years old. Aircraft design has come a long way in that time I recall hearing that the Md-11 has more drag on one wing then the 777 has on the entire airframe which means it burns alot more fuel. Also from what I hear from some pilots of the Md-11 it isn't a very good plane and I think that has to do with adding new tech to (at the time of its build) a nearly 30 year old design.

The MD80 was just a stretched DC-9 with new engines and modern avionics.  That was a massive success.  So the old airframe is not the problem.  At the time it was launched, the MD-11 predicted performance was very good.  Unfortunately it didn't perform as well as the predictions.  That was the problem, not the technology used, which was very advanced for its time.

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I flew on a Garuda MD-11 from Sydney to Jakarta, 1998. Enough has already been said about the whys and wherefors about this beautiful looking aircraft, so I will not add.

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I've always wondered if the fate of MD and the MD-11 was sealed after the loss of SR111.

 

I think too but in the time of crash swissair had a new technologies on board and it was very newer for its time, the proofs show it was a capton problem and the procedures of swissair in case of emergency was to long... it's not only a plane problem.

 

 

 

I know it is twitchy in pitch, a PITA at cruise (VERY sensitive), and oscillates on approach, BUT finesse as a pilot should solve those.

 

 

I agree, don't know in reality world, but with the pmdg MD-11 on approach if you fly at 180kt or higher speed before intercepting the LOC and switching on the FMS speed when you are etablished work fine for me.After just keep warning on the noise elevation making smoothly as possible for the landing and touchdown.

 

 

So all comments are very good for a MD-11 fan :)

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The PMDG MD-11 will always hold a special place in my hangar.  The bird is very interesting to look at and is very impressive on landing when you get it right.  I will continue flying it regardless of what happen in real world.

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I've always wondered if the fate of MD and the MD-11 was sealed after the loss of SR111. There was a big deal back then about insulation blankets and capton wiring, which the MD-11 used extensively (so did Boeing and several other manufacturers but that seemed to make little difference).

 

I'm not sure that the fire doomed the MD-11. Sabena received the last MD-11 passenger version built in April 1998 after Boeing announced they were ending the passenger production line.

 

 

 

the proofs show it was a capton problem and the procedures of swissair in case of emergency was to long

 

I don't think the checklist was really a problem, except that it didn't inform the crew to land as soon as possible. I think it was more the crew was slow to diagnose the source of the smoke and made a few bad decisions.

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The source of the fire was some extremely bad wiring done when the in-flight entertainment system was installed. The idiots (and that is putting it mildly) DIRECTLY connected the IFE to the main AC electrical bus, bypassing the CAB ISOL switch on the flight deck!!!!!!!

 

The wiring was poorly installed, and this led to arcing. The arcing set fire to the insulation blankets just above and ahead of door 1R.

 

The first sign of anything being wrong was smoke eminating out of the vents at the rear of the cockpit, but as it was dark, they were spotted quite late. It was already too late to make a difference. The pilots started with the smoke checklists, thinking it was related to the air-conditioning. As that made little difference, they then went through the electrical smoke checklists. As has already been mentioned, these procedures were much too long, but it wouldn't have helped. The checklist called for the CAB ISOL switch to be activated, killing all power to the cabin. This was **SUPPOSED** to have removed electrical power from the faulty IFE, but it did not as it was NOT connected to the cabin electrical bus, but directly to the AC main bus. As they were running this checklist, the cockpit instruments began to fail, and they ended up with numerous strange failures and alerts as a result of the fire burning all the wiring to the overhead panels and circuit breakers.

 

From all the analysis that followed, even if they were in an optimum position for a straight in approach and landing for their cruise altitude, they still would not have made it. The heat and systems failures would have prevented a successful landing.

 

Just 12 minutes elapsed from first sign of fire to the aircraft crashing into the ocean. :cray:

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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The PMDG MD-11 will always hold a special place in my hangar.  The bird is very interesting to look at and is very impressive on landing when you get it right.  I will continue flying it regardless of what happen in real world.

 

 

Yes, he is majestic, seem to be a big bird come back from his nest :) i use delta airline continental spirit atlanta olympique game 1996 livrery and when i fly on ivao network, he wear the color of FeDex beautiful too.

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the basic design is nearly 50 years old. Aircraft design has come a long way in that time

 

LOL - Concorde's design is rooted in the 1950s... I don't think anyone would say its design is not very good.

 

The winglets you see on the MD-11 are being trialled by Boeing on the latest 737s, because they work out more efficient.

 

Just because the base design is old, does NOT mean that it is no good.

 

Concorde and MD-11 share many parallels. Both aircraft were ahead of their time, overtaken by economics of modern materials and design methodology.

 

Build a modern MD-11 or Concorde and they would beat many aircraft around today. 747-8 is a re-engined 747-400 and built using modern materials. The basic design didn't change, apart from a few tweaks. Look at the efficiences in the -8 vs. -400. This is modern materials science at work.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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Love the MD-11 and it, like the J41, were very brave decisions by PMDG.  I wish both could get some update treatment, but it doesn't look likely.  Can't wait until 747-400 pt. 2.  At that point we'll have a great selection of Freighter heavy metal.

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I remember a story from a SFO newspaper saying that KSFO had another non-stop to Tokyo making fun of the fact AA had to fly from KSJC to KSFO for fuel due runway MD11 limitations operating out of KSJC in early 90's. Not sure if it was temp runway expansion project or poor MD11 performance...suspect poor MD11 performance. AA dumped the MD11 after that and think went with TWA's old 747SP's till new equipment came online or just dropped the route. KSJC didn't last long as a AA hub.

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The 747SPs came before the MD-11s. They only ever had 2 of the SPs. The MD-11s were then replaced by the 777s. Back when I was a newhire I was scheduled to deadhead on MD-11s multiple times but only ever got to go one once because each of the other times the flight was cancelled for mechanical problems.

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