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roarkr

LM is closing down part of training system activities

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Will P3D be affected? Another blow for our flightsim community?

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Nobody knows the answer to that except people in LM. I guess we'll find out quite it quite soon as a company in that level probably releases announcments if something will happen in near or longer term considering the developement and/or support (I believe some of the LM layoffs happen till the end of 2014).

 

In any case, nothing we can do about it.

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From what I've read these layoffs will occur in their drone training facilities and should not affect the P3D team at all.

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From what I've read these layoffs will occur in their drone training facilities and should not affect the P3D team at all.

its sad that people are losing their jobs but I wish drones would go away. I know the airlines are eyeing them and would love to have pilotless planes which means I wont have a job.

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airlines are eyeing them and would love to have pilotless planes which means I wont have a job.

 

May be off topic, but this is something I have never understood. Why in the world would a large corporation want to risk so many millions (billions maybe) of dollars in liability by not having a flight crew at the very least *managing* the aircraft? I do not see how this could ever come to pass. But then again, folks were at one time convinced that the world was flat too.  :wacko:

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If you are in a modern airliner, you are already flying in pilot-less aircraft (the pilots are over seers). A computer flies the plane from Take off to landing and don't think for a moment anything in that cockpit can't be made to be remotely operated.

 

FAA requires a crew, until that changes, you will have a pilot and crew on board.

 

PS: Drones / UAV's /RPV's do not need to go away. They do have their uses.

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If you are in a modern airliner, you are already flying in pilot-less aircraft (the pilots are over seers). A computer flies the plane from Take off to landing and don't think for a moment anything in that cockpit can't be made to be remotely operated.

 

FAA requires a crew, until that changes, you will have a pilot and crew on board.

 

PS: Drones / UAV's /RPV's do not need to go away. They do have their uses.

Yea they do but mark my word they will remove pilots from the cockpit one day. My dad refused to turn the autopilot on till he was at cruise when he flew 747s for United and Ill do the same when I get to the airlines. Turning the AP on at 200 feet isn't very smart.

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If you are in a modern airliner, you are already flying in pilot-less aircraft (the pilots are over seers). A computer flies the plane from Take off to landing and don't think for a moment anything in that cockpit can't be made to be remotely operated.

 

FAA requires a crew, until that changes, you will have a pilot and crew on board.

 

PS: Drones / UAV's /RPV's do not need to go away. They do have their uses.

While you may have computers translating the inputs, especially on Airbus aircraft, but they certainly do not fly the aircraft in the truest sense of the term; unless of course the Pilot decides to engage the autopilot. Even when the a/p is on the pilot is still monitoring and can disengage as required and hand fly the plane. For me personally it will be a cold day in hell before I got on a pilotless aircraft.

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My dad refused to turn the autopilot on till he was at cruise when he flew 747s for United and Ill do the same when I get to the airlines. Turning the AP on at 200 feet isn't very smart.

 

That would very much depend on what the airline's SOP's are. I would think that if you fail to comply with the SOP's then you're out of a job.

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May be off topic, but this is something I have never understood. Why in the world would a large corporation want to risk so many millions (billions maybe) of dollars in liability by not having a flight crew at the very least *managing* the aircraft? I do not see how this could ever come to pass. But then again, folks were at one time convinced that the world was flat too.  :wacko:

 

 

Well, pilots in fighter jets are the reason jets can't do more than they currently can (performance wise).  Additionally, I don't think you realize how much it costs to create life system supports on an aircraft - not to mention the billions spent on pilot training per year by the government.

 

How this discussion turned to pilotless airliners I will not know...

Turning the AP on at 200 feet isn't very smart.

 

I don't know what point you're trying to prove but if you don't know anything about the regulations or policies governing such restrictions than please don't spew absolute garbage.

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its sad that people are losing their jobs but I wish drones would go away. I know the airlines are eyeing them and would love to have pilotless planes which means I wont have a job.

 

@_@   I refuse to EVER ride in a aircraft driven by a computer exclusively or even remotely by a pilot on the ground.   If I have to risk my life inside the plane then the pilot of said plane needs to be in it as well to share the same risk.    That is CRAZY to even consider a pilotless civilian airliner.  I can understand combat craft but this whole concept of 'removing' the pilot error factor by making the systems more automated with computers is non-sense because the errors are still there, still created by man but just in the form of bad programming on a computer or making a bad parts.   No thank you airlines.  Keep your SkyNet killer robot airplanes.

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Yea they do but mark my word they will remove pilots from the cockpit one day. 

 

I can imagine plenty of business for those airlines that keep the pilots on board. It's all hypothetical until the world's aviation authorities sign off on it anyway and it's hard to see that happening any time soon.

 

As part of Ryanair's never-ending thirst for publicity, it was announced a year or two ago that they were thinking about doing away with co-pilots. After all, everything was automated and couldn't the cabin crew be trained to help out in the cockpit in the event of an emergency? Like the "standing seats" idea, nothing came of it. But that was never the point anyway... 

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Well, pilots in fighter jets are the reason jets can't do more than they currently can (performance wise). Additionally, I don't think you realize how much it costs to create life system supports on an aircraft - not to mention the billions spent on pilot training per year by the government.

 

How this discussion turned to pilotless airliners I will not know...

 

 

I don't know what point you're trying to prove but if you don't know anything about the regulations or policies governing such restrictions than please don't spew absolute garbage.

Remember that Air France flight a few years ago that stalled into the sea that's what happens when pilots forget how to fly the plane and that happens when all they do is use the autopilot.

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Remember that Air France flight a few years ago that stalled into the sea that's what happens when pilots forget how to fly the plane and that happens when all they do is use the autopilot.

 

And what about the hundreds of thousands of flights that arrive every day without a hitch?

 

So you're now attributing using the autopilot at cruise to the fact that the particular Air France crew in question used the autopilot from 200 ft. on departure all the way to landing, and they therefore used the autopilot too much and that was the leading contribution to the crash?

 

The Air France crew in that accident most likely did what they were probably taught.  The problem with flying modern airliners is that most people are taught incorrectly in FSTDs because of the limited envelope an FSTD offers.  What about CFIT and LOC-I?  You want to blame those on autopilot usage too?

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Remember that Air France flight a few years ago that stalled into the sea that's what happens when pilots forget how to fly the plane and that happens when all they do is use the autopilot.

 

Exactly. And KSFO and the Colgan Air thing, too.

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 That is CRAZY to even consider a pilotless civilian airliner.

 

Why is that crazy?  Do you know each and every pilot/crew that flies - why would they be more trust worthy than an automated system?  What if the pilot has become a drunk, drug addict, family problems, hiding a physical illness so as to keep his/her job?  What if the crew don't get along with each other?  All bad for your safety.

 

70% airline crashes/incidents are from pilot error (those are NTSB numbers).  Pilots have good days and bad days for any number of reasons - just part of being human.  Automated systems aren't affected by those limitations ... they maybe affected by human programming errors but that's why we test, the more critical a system, the more it's tested.

 

But if you want to look at statistics and automation: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/global-airline-accident-and-safety-review-for-2010-351782/

 

Quote from that article:

 

 

 

Inadequate crew knowledge of automated systems was a factor in more than 40% of accidents and 30% of serious airline incidents, Abbott says. She catalogues evidence of disharmony between crews and their highly automated aircraft, based on detailed studies of accident and incident data and line operation safety audits between 2001 and 2009, so the research is recent and involves real operations. 

 

It's not the automated systems fault, it's the crews fault.

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E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 2:00 PM, said:E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 2:00 PM, said:E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 2:00 PM, said:E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 2:00 PM, said:E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 2:00 PM, said:E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 2:00 PM, said:

And what about the hundreds of thousands of flights that arrive every day without a hitch?

 

So you're now attributing using the autopilot at cruise to the fact that the particular Air France crew in question used the autopilot from 200 ft. on departure all the way to landing, and they therefore used the autopilot too much and that was the leading contribution to the crash?

 

The Air France crew in that accident most likely did what they were probably taught.  The problem with flying modern airliners is that most people are taught incorrectly in FSTDs because of the limited envelope an FSTD offers.  What about CFIT and LOC-I?  You want to blame those on autopilot usage too

Maybe if they had hand flown the plane more they would have realised they were in a stall. Why are you so against hand flying a plane? My grandfather was a barnstormer in the 20's he told my dad and my dad told me to strap the plane to your A## and fly it not let it fly you. Lets look at the A320 that was landed in the Hudson no autopilot could have done that and I bet to have had that good of a feel for the plane he hand flew the A320 quite often.Knowing systems is great but when the shiz hits the fan it comes down to one thing and one thing alone being able to feel the plane what its doing and what its going to do its hard to describe in words but most RW pilots will know what I'm talking about.

 

 

As for alot of accidents being blamed on the pilots somtimes the NTSB does that to keep the public from fearing a particular plane hurting not only the airline but the builder of the plane aswell. IE dead men don't talk.

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PS: Drones / UAV's /RPV's do not need to go away. They do have their uses.

 

FAA forecast that they'll be around 7500 drones in our airspace within five years....WOW that's a lot. You can check out their road map for them here: http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/

 

-Ray

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There is a military saying that goes 'train like you fight, fight like you train'.

 

Humans are good at the unexpected and a useful component in the system mix. Until autopilots can surpass human intelligence then they won't be able to handle unexpected situations as well.

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Wow, this topic sure took a left turn along the way, the topic is LM cutting back on personnel in the Drones section.

 

Ray

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There is a military saying that goes 'train like you fight, fight like you train'.

Humans are good at the unexpected and a useful component in the system mix. Until autopilots can surpass human intelligence then they won't be able to handle unexpected situations as well.

The first time a fully automated passenger plane lost its mind and crashed, that would be the end of that. No amount of explanation of statistics and probabilities would stop the public and politicians from nuking the whole concept from orbit.

 

Not to even mention hackers.......

 

It would be the tubeliner version of the Hindenburg as far as public reaction went.

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Maybe if they had hand flown the plane more they would have realised they were in a stall. Why are you so against hand flying a plane? My grandfather was a barnstormer in the 20's he told my dad and my dad told me to strap the plane to your A## and fly it not let it fly you. Lets look at the A320 that was landed in the Hudson no autopilot could have done that and I bet to have had that good of a feel for the plane he hand flew the A320 quite often.Knowing systems is great but when the shiz hits the fan it comes down to one thing and one thing alone being able to feel the plane what its doing and what its going to do its hard to describe in words but most RW pilots will know what I'm talking about.

I'm not against hand flying the airplane, but making the assumption and generalization that using the autopilot is a root cause of many accidents is rather ignorant when you aren't a pilot nor have any idea as to the pilots background, experience, training background, qualification or the specific airline SOP.  You're just making brash assumptions to substantiate what you think may or may not be true.

 

I'll just leave it at that.

 

As for alot of accidents being blamed on the pilots somtimes the NTSB does that to keep the public from fearing a particular plane hurting not only the airline but the builder of the plane aswell. IE dead men don't talk.

 

That's quite the conspiracy theory you have going on there.  You happen to know any NTSB investigators or ever been a part of an aircraft investigation?  The NTSB has no binding ties to manufacturers, operators or the FAA.  Their only job is to protect the flying public.

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E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 5:22 PM, said:E6BAV8R, on 14 Nov 2013 - 5:22 PM, said:

I'm not against hand flying the airplane, but making the assumption and generalization that using the autopilot is a root cause of many accidents is rather ignorant when you aren't a pilot nor have any idea as to the pilots background, experience, training background, qualification or the specific airline SOP.  You're just making brash assumptions to substantiate what you think may or may not be true.

 

I'll just leave it at that.

 

 

That's quite the conspiracy theory you have going on there.  You happen to know any NTSB investigators or ever been a part of an aircraft investigation?

I am a pilot actually! By hand flying a plane you gain experience flying, by pushing a button you gain experience pushing a button which don't help that much in an emergency to be honest. As for SOP's the only time you have to use the autopilot is for a Cat III approach the rest of its left up to the PIC as far as I know. To gain experience flying you actually have to fly the plane not watch the auto pilot do it. In the RW I hand fly most of the time. In the sim I hand fly to cruise on long flights and hand fly descent, On short flights in the NGX like KLAX to KLAS I hand fly the whole way. I paid $70 to fly a 737 sim not watch the AP have all the fun. In the RW I fly off sectionals and use the GPS as a backup only doing this keeps your attention where it should be on flying the plane and I always know where Im at in case that GPS fails unlike alot of folks who don't think that the GPS will ever fail.

 

Also who's easier to blame two or three dead pilots or a multi billion dollar company? I know alot of pilots who feel the same way about the NTSB. I'm not saying pilots don't make mistakes but pilots aren't always to blame either.

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Some 4000 people are likely to lose their jobs and this community squabbles about hand-flying. Some community!

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