Maybe time to more indepth expalantion about what to expect

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Its seems odd to me that you carry on like a senior training captain with a world of "real world" experience under your "wings" but in reality, your not.

 

I understand how it would seem odd, but it's mostly because I have a bunch of extra experience that a senior training captain doesn't even have through the jobs I've worked.  As an example, I'm sure I'd be entertained by the average senior training captain's take on why the SIDs and STARs into/out of the NY Metroplex are designed the way they are (not that they'd get it wholly wrong), or why delays can get so bad in and out of there.  That shouldn't be misconstrued as hostility toward anyone in the industry, though.  I'm the first one to sit down and shut the [he]ck up when I think I'm reaching the end of my scope of knowledge (though there have been instances where I thought I knew something but didn't, as both Robert and KevinH have stepped in to let me know I was full of it).

 

It's not about what hours and ratings you have.  It's about the knowledge you have in conjunction with all of that.  I know plenty of ATPs that I wouldn't even fly a Cessna with, and I know plenty of your run-of-the-mill commercial-rated guys I'd trust with my life.  Heck, I even get on a relative's case sometimes for not being as throrough as he should be (preflight, and in-flight), and he was an Air Force instructor.  This is what precipitated the change in simply accepting "we're all filed, and the briefing looks good" and added to my distrust of hours and certificates used as trump cards:

 

(note the frost on the spinner, and the glazing on the wings, easily visible on the landing light cover - I simply trusted the PIC based on comparative experience and ratings)

 

I'm sure you know a few people with the required ratings who just can't back it up with sound aviation decision making or knowledge.  At the same time, that's not to say I'm going to walk up to some random captain and try to argue my lesser hours and ratings somehow match his, and his experience is worthless.

 

 

 

I would caution you if being a commercial operator is in your future as being "overly knowledge and overly confident" and seen to be a bit of a know it all - will kill you one day when your over confidence gets you in a pickle. But that's what training captains are for - to quash this mentality. Trust me, I was full of ###### and vinegar many moons ago and got put in my place quickly. Very humbling but taught me a lesson.

 

Definitely sound advice for anyone, really.  I got myself in some hot water when I moved from one ramp service provider to the next because the contract changed hands.  It was one of those situations where you were right, you knew you were right, but someone above you said "do X by method A," and it wasn't dangerous, so you should've just done it.  It happened when I worked ramp out at DVT, too:

 

Ramp Manager: "Kyle - that Citation X needs to be triple chocked!!!"

Me: "That's a Falcon 50 - it only needs two, by the book."

Ramp Manager: [lecture on how I was being insubordinate, somehow...]

 

In similar situation, now, unless it's going to cause damage or otherwise be dangerous, I just keep my mouth shut, roll my eyes where I can't be seen, and move on.  Around here, though, there's no real true heirarchy that would end up putting a damper on my career aspirations (if anything, being here and posting so much has gotten me more opportunities - not saying I don't occasionally end up coming across like a know-it-all [insert choice word here]) so I tend to be a little looser here about what I'd say versus in a job situation.

 

Still...sound advice!

[martin-w 3,246]

I wanted to chime in here and echo the frustrations of Robin and Martin regarding the pitch/trim/speed stability issues.

 

PMDG spared no effort in advertising the accuracy of the LR/F's systems. I think we all expected the aircraft to behave as per the real world through the normal flight regime given all of the development and testing that PMDG put into the project, not to mention the fairly steep price tag (not to suggest that the price isn't justified overall). When a select few of us discovered that it didn't work quite the way it should, PMDG's initial response (at least to me) was to suggest that we clearly couldn't know what we were talking about because they just knew better.

 

I think we all understand that PMDG has access to documentation that the rest of us don't have. They have an accomplished tech and beta team who know the airplane in and out. There are FBW kinks that aren't actually explained in the manuals, but are in fact known to the 777 pilot community and are accurately simulated. Still, this doesn't make them infallible. As a paying customer, I found PMDG's reaction to be dismissive. After a back and forth with support, the best answer I got on the pitch/trim issue was "I'll pass it along to the team." Since then, there has been no explanation of the changes to the FBW logic in SP1 other than that it's being "tweaked."

 

PMDG, to my knowledge, hasn't publicly explained what the expected pitch behavior should be, other than the initial response of "we got it right the first time." A few of us, I feel, have shown that it certainly doesn't work as described in the manual and have corroborated that the current FBW pitch behavior is unrealistic with 777 pilots outside the PMDG team. I'm not a 777 driver myself, I'm not going to claim that I know more than PMDG does. But if they feel that the behavior is correct, I think that as paying customers we are at least owed an explanation of how its supposed to work. 

 

PMDG has a reputation for the outstanding accuracy of its simulations, and overall the 777 is no exception. But having bought a product based on their reputation and the advertising of the depth of the simulation, I expected more. I understand that its impossible to get everything right in an initial release, but I feel that the response of the company to this issue has been lacking. 

 

I really enjoy flying the 777, but every time I hit the AP DISCO switch on approach, I know I'm going to be fighting the airplane all the way to the ground. It's frustrating. I just wish PMDG would be a little more forthcoming on this one.

Well, we are told that the trim issue has been addressed. However, in the bug tracking thread PMDG make it clear that "more will be said close to or at release" regarding the general FBW changes. What will be revealed regarding that is anybody's guess. Why that information couldn't be released now, who knows.

 

As for how the 777 should respond in terms of trim, Robin's explanation was spot on, [despite Ryan's comments] as confirmed by Rob, who's been flying the real aircraft for 12 years.

 

It shouldn't be difficult to fly, in fact the inherent stability of a large aircraft should make it easier to fly in some ways, and trimming should be no harder than any other modern airliner.

[troyk 27]

Hey guys cheer up, I actually found this thread an interesting read.

 

And jeez don't panic. Nothing wrong with a bit of niggle here and there.

[AirCanada235 103]

Why that information couldn't be released now, who knows.

 

I could not agree 1000 times more

[Nixon 30]

 

 

 
I understand how it would seem odd, but it's mostly because I have a bunch of extra experience that a senior training captain doesn't even have through the jobs I've worked.  As an example, I'm sure I'd be entertained by the average senior training captain's take on why the SIDs and STARs into/out of the NY Metroplex are designed the way they are (not that they'd get it wholly wrong), or why delays can get so bad in and out of there.

 

It not only seems odd but also arrogant. Of course there maybe some senior training captains who can entertain you with their ignorance but it's just possible in this big world of ours that their are one or two who have a slightly better grasp, than you, of the aviation world. 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

It not only seems odd but also arrogant. Of course there maybe some senior training captains who can entertain you with their ignorance but it's just possible in this big world of ours that their are one or two who have a slightly better grasp, than you, of the aviation world. 

 

I think you should go back and read that.  That wasn't spoken out of arrogance at all.  I'm sure my friends who work in the field of (health) science would be entertained by my attempts to explain organic chemistry.  That's not at all related to arrogance.  It's that it's a fact that I don't have the same level of understanding that they do, so my explanation could very well be entertaining.

 

Example:

I had a kid ask me if the world spun around because all of the cars driving on it made it spin the opposite way.  That made me laugh, and then I high fived the kid for his understanding of Newton's third law, but explained that the world spins on its own.  So, since I was entertained by the question (and comparative lack of knowledge) that makes me arrogant?  I think not.

 

Additionally, where in any of my posts did I say I'm the most intelligent person in the aviation world?  I simply said I have experience in different facets of aviation that most don't.  Don't put words in my mouth simply because you don't like me.

[Nixon 30]

Kyle

I have read your post and my opinion is that you rightly or wrongly think you have a detailed knowledge of aviation. All am suggesting is that it's possible there maybe one or two people that know a little more than you. You have spent a lot of time and energy telling Robin how he should write his posts concerning the FBW characteristics of the 777 so I thought it would be helpful to point out that to me and maybe some others you come across as "a know it all". Make of it what you will.

 

 

Additionally, where in any of my posts did I say I'm the most intelligent person in the aviation world?  I simply said I have experience in different facets of aviation that most don't.  Don't put words in my mouth simply because you don't like me.
 

Did I say that you considered yourself "the most intelligent person in the aviation world". If I did please quote me. Talking of putting words into mouths, I would also be interested in you pointing out where I am meant to have written "because you don't like me". For your information I neither like nor dislike you, I just don't always agree with you. If I take your analogy one step further then from reading your posts there must be many people on here that you don't like. 

 

BTW Organic chemistry is the chemistry of hydrocarbons and has applications not only in the health world.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

but it's just possible in this big world of ours that their are one or two who have a slightly better grasp, than you, of the aviation world.

 

^ There's your quote.  Unless I'm reading more into that than I should be, the inference is that I somehow think I'm the most knowledgeable person out there.

 

The fact that you followed it up with this further backs up that interpretation:

 

 

I have read your post and my opinion is that you rightly or wrongly think you have a detailed knowledge of aviation. All am suggesting is that it's possible there maybe one or two people that know a little more than you

 

I do think I know a ton about aviation, and you're welcome to challenge me on it (as many do here), but by no means do I think I'm the most knowledgeable, so it would certainly follow that there are a few who know a little more than me.  I don't think there's a single post in my entire history that makes the assertion that there isn't.

 

 

 

BTW Organic chemistry is the chemistry of hydrocarbons and has applications not only in the health world.

 

Thus the "health" in parentheses...

 

I don't really know many scientists in general.  I know a ton in health sciences (one of whom posts frequently here), so I was simply making the statement more relevant to my own life instead of purely hypothetical...but as long as we're nitpicking...

[Nixon 30]

Thanks Kyle for taking the time to explain what I actually mean. I expect that you with your tons of knowledge of aviation do have some idea of how organic chemistry relates to it.

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

BTW, where's the topic starter?   :rolleyes:

[AirCanada235 103]

Kyle

I have read your post and my opinion is that you rightly or wrongly think you have a detailed knowledge of aviation. All am suggesting is that it's possible there maybe one or two people that know a little more than you. You have spent a lot of time and energy telling Robin how he should write his posts concerning the FBW characteristics of the 777 so I thought it would be helpful to point out that to me and maybe some others you come across as "a know it all". Make of it what you will.

 

Again - I couldn't agree more!!  But I guess that is how one become a " 9 Star" 9 I had to count them- WOW...in these forums. 7681 posts - really guy?  Do you not have anything better to do?  And ya - you come off as a TOTAL know it all.

 

I get that you had "other jobs" in aviation but I am not sure how working on the ramp entitles you to share a wide breadth of knowledge with little to no depth behind it.  Shocking as it may seem Kyle, people may not what to hear a diatribe from you each time they post something.  You sir are NOT the wiki for PMDG nor the resident expert.  However, I am sure that you know how to fly PMDG's simulation of the 777 really well.  If I need to know how to stick a hydrant truck on to an airplane, I will come and ask you - or if I am too lazy to read a manual from PMDG that clearly you have read cover to cover many times over - you can share your book smarts with me.  Or even if I need to know how many chocks to put under my tires when I am in Paris because I am not sure the rampies did it right - I will ask you!!

 

Unfortunately in this industry (that I am a part of and have been for many years) - experience is what matters - of which you have little to none of.  So go get some.  Go get a flying job and fly an airplane and make it all count - but check your ego at the door or someone will do it for you or worse you get in to an accident because you have convinced yourself you know something you don't.

[Daveo 36]

BTW, where's the topic starter?   :rolleyes:

Don't know but now I missed my TV show.

:blink:

[Wothan 173]

BTW, where's the topic starter?   :rolleyes:

 

I´m still here, but only halfway enjoys what I see.

 

It really turned out as I feared...

###### on one side and those who feel that they didn´t quite got what they where promised.

 

Finally PMDG opted to shed some light on whats going on behind the scene, and I must confess it looks promising.

Nevertheless I still think that feedback has been quite slow comming - others may disagree, but isn´t that the beauty of whats called "free speech" ?

 

I also saw Your link to Mathijs' (from Aerosoft) announcement about publishing release dates for new addons and updates, but please read my posts and tell where I asked for a release date for SP1 ? -  all I have been asking for is some feedback. Feedback from the devs does not need to come numerous times a week, but I still think there has been alot of silence - thats the most major gripe I have.

 

Considering the normal lifespan of a sim, more than ½ year waiting on the update to the first release version, where bugs WILL exist (I never expected it to be bugfree) is very long.

 

FinnJ

[JohnsonPBX 8]

This is going to get interesting.

[squerble 300]

It's a curious sense of entitlement that rears it's head around these products. The popular products, the revered products, the anticipated products. It's an uglier side of the human psyche and one which will never go away. I've experienced it myself - I curse Viber for still not having released an iOS 7 overhaul, I bemoan the lack of updates or material proof from Cultured Code on their next release of 'Things' and I've sworn incessantly at PMDG for the seemingly empty gulf where information on their 744v2 should be.

 

However, since I can now partially claim to be "on the other side of the fence", I've learned to keep my mouth shut. There seems to be a startling lack of respect for the developers which some individuals will try to turn around to make it seem like developers lack respect for their customers. I can assure you that any ranting and raving you may do will have absolutely no effect. The developers know when there is a worthy milestone which warrants some public broadcast, they know when it is prudent to disclose new information. They are not doing it to annoy you, to disrespect you, to drive you - they are doing it because they know the information they haven't disclosed will have no bearing or relevance. They won't do it because every minute detail will be analysed and incorrectly so.

 

What if Rob/Ryan at PMDG or Lefteris/Andrew at FSL posted a screenshot of a PFD that was still a work in progress, that had some imperfections, that didn't look quite like the real thing? You can bet any number of pounds that theories will start flying within minutes. Someone will start throwing around that the project is still years off; another will say the developers have no idea what they're doing; some cheeky people will even tell other people not to buy the product because it won't be worth it!! Huge arguments will start, spanning pages and pages of forums. Well, what if those imperfections in the PFD were simply part of a debugging display? What if all it took was one character change in the code to remove all the debugging and have a perfect representation? You don't know that yet you'll presume you know better and start mouthing off unnecessarily.

 

Take advice from someone who has seen both sides of the story - stop wasting energy, thoughts and high blood pressure. Time passes more quickly when you're having fun, so don't sit there angry and disgruntled because at the end of the day the product WILL come.

 

 

Now if you'll forgive the bleary-eyed rantings, I'm off to bed.