If everything you do has to be a challenge, who the #### would we get to fly us over the pond to NYC, for our hols ?

Ooops,sorry, I should have said " who the Hades"

"If the autopilot does everything where is the challange? "Ahh, the old common misconception that ALL heavy flying is done using the AP, I think you will find that the vaste majority of airliner sim pilots, and probably their real world counterparts, fly as much of the route by hand as possible, I like to hand fly all the way up to cruise alt, and then all the way down from TOD.Ok, the challenge is this, try flying the PROPER approach into Funchal, Maderia, which incidentaly HAS to be hand flown as there is no ILS, and its a circle to land approach, in a 737-800 with a 20kt crosswind, do this and tell me that there is not challenge.To me, I find flying heavy stuff more of a challenge than GA because I like to make my flying structured, flying the most efficient way to save fuel, but trying to make the trip in the shortest time, trying to fly as smooth as possible as not to make the "passengers" spill there cocktails.Flying airliners is challenging, its just that those challanges are different.

For me it's not only the preference for a "heavy" feel, but it's more so about learning all the different aircraft systems and navigation techniques and then applying them as a real pile-it would. I would call it the career I never got to do. Not to mention it doesn't take me 5 hours to go 500 miles either. :

Apologies, but I am not in a very generous mood today (just had two wisdom teeth pulled yesterday), but is there not a day that goes by without someone asking a question that inevitably is going to end in a huge flame war? What you are asking is a "leading" question, along the lines of, "when did you stop beating your wife."I see no point in your question, since I suspect that a lot of folks fly BOTH, enjoy flying both, and mix up the challenge of handflying with the relative ease (at least in cruise) that automation offers. But anyone who writes a sentence like: "if the autopilot does everything where is the challenge," isn't really interested in a discussion. ricardo

Well said Ricardo. Diversity is the spice of life.Russell.

I think all flying is challenging with flight simulation, some more than others obviously. I believe the RFP 747-200 is the most complicated and challenging aircraft out there for FS2004, and it happens to be a heavy! As far as the autopilot is concerned, just keeping the Inertial Navigation System (Litton LTN-72) updated while monitoringthe air conditioning and pressurization, electrical system, flight controls and instruments, fuel system (which has to be configured for each part of your flight), hydraulics, the powerplants, pneumatics, and more, is very challenging. You have to keep a close eye and make changes to each of these systems between chalk times. I forgot to mention all of the planning (proper fuel and weight configuration for take off and for the duration of your flight and the ATC that you have to deal with as well. In fact, the CIVA INS (autopilot for the RFP 747-200) is very complex and its usage is probably more complicated, and thus challenging, than any aspect of flight simming. Many pilots hand-fly this thing and deal with all of the aformentioned variables and the Full Flight Regime Autothrottle System before locking in the INS. So, yes, it can be, and is, very challenging.RHRH

I don't think the question is an invitation to flame at all, unless someone reads it who is close to spontaneous combustion anyway. It's a great question. There are probably many GA simmers out there who have the misconception that flying heavies is all about getting it off the ground and then turning on the autopilot and snoozing until it autolands and you have to deploy the thrust reversers. There's some great answers here that might just convince a few GA simmers to give a heavy a try or two. Sure, it's different, but it's fun too. billg

I think the main challenge with flying the 'heavies' is the speed. It forces you to have to think much quicker and be ahead of the plane, otherwise it can get ugly pretty fast.Secondary challenges are the systems and dynamics. There is a huge difference between trying to transition from cruise to approach in a light aircraft as opposed to a heavy.It all requires forward planning, and quick mental thought process all the way. I think its great and alot of fun flying the 172s, but I tell ya, there's nothing like the feeling of a perfectly executed approach in a heavy.

Easy one this.........................It's the nearest I will ever get to doing it for real and with a little imagination I can imagine I'm really there!I fly with the best 'V.A.' I have ever known, www.knightair.com and the assignments are very real using actual flights as the base of activities.I am happy in the knowledge of knowing that if you can fly the PMDG and PSS aircraft (Their software is as real as it gets) you could probably do it for real, with the loss of dealing with any emergency's that may arise. There are those who even practise such emergencies and use their own quick thinking to divert and re-load the FMC to accomodate the new instructions. Not for me, I'm too busy enjoying the thrill of doing it.To sum up, with one man doing the job of two, maybe three as in the 'Altitude' Concorde the flying is far from NOT being challenging in fact is is bloody marvellous if you don't crack under the pressure!Lets all just thank our lucky stars that there will always be two operators on the flight deck because the day they reduce it to one is the day I will be looking skywards ALL THE TIME.All the best,Dave.'Three greens and soft landings'

<<< It's the nearest I will ever get to doing it for real and with a little imagination I can imagine I'm really there! >>>>Yea! Well said. For me too! :)I just fly them for the "feel" of flying something heavy. A good soundset is REALLY important for immersion!Im not into FMC programming, procedures & all that. I just sprout a route in Flight Planner, takeoff and have the autopilot follow the GPS while I enjoy the wingviews I made & occasionaly flick the seatbelt sign on and off pretending to be "Captain" heh heh.The only hand-flying I do in heavies is the takeoff, intitial climb, short-approach & landing.During cruise I play GTA San Adreas http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contri...y/corkysm20.gif

I fly the "bigger" planes such as the 737NG and my absoulte favorite plane to fly in MSFS, the Flight1 ATR, because they fly like real aircraft, or as close as you can get in FS. If you visit the Flight1 ATR forum for instance, you will see that there are quite a few real ATR pilots there that fly the F1 ATR in their leisure time and think it is very realistic. This give me the feeling that I could actually fly one of these multi million dollar aircraft given the chance. As to the "no challenge" part, purchase the ATR or the PMDG 737 and see how long it takes you to start the engines and taxi to active and take off the first couple of times, and then tell us it's "not challanging" :) I do disagree on the " Airline Pilots try and hand fly everywhere." Many companies encourage autopilot flying as it is much more economical when the plane is on autopilot. The fun in the ATR, is that you can hand fly the entire flight if you want, without even turning on the FMC and autopilot.

It is a big misconception that airline pilots feel the need to prove themselves by handflying their aircraft...which couldn't be further from the truth. For whom exactly would one be showing off when one flicks off the autopilot at the start of a 5 hour transcon flight?Sure, many airline pilots flick off the a/p on a nice calm approach to handfly that perfect greaser right in the TD zone, etc. HOWEVER, try that handfly macho crap while on the RBV approach into KEWR at 5:00PM with traffic stacked at 2 minute seperation with ATC calling out speed and altitiude seperation changes and expedites like Pez out of a Pez despenser!!! All this after doing 5 legs a day for the last 4 days in a B737-700 with bad weather and delays on every other leg. Yeah, okay, hand fly, uh huh... Not to mention that airlines REQUIRE that pilots utilize ALL automated flight systems where practical as a SOP. Many non-pilots are stuck in this romantic notion that "real" pilots handfly for the "challenge" as much as possible. The fact is REAL pilots have their pilots licenses to show that they have already MET the "challenge" and have nothing more to prove. But, don't take my word for it...please feel free to walk up to any 20,000 hour senior captain and tell him that you are more of a pilot in your simulated, no autopilot, Censsna 150 than he is in his full EFIS automated, 747-400, methinks he would beg to differ. :-xxrotflmaoTherefore, a PILOT'S use, or lack of use, of an autopilot proves nothing unless the only flying one does involves frequent high-g maneuvers while evading enemy MIGs in an F-15, in which case, I would agree...handflying is way to go!!!My 2 cents.Mike T.

Yep... believe me after flying a Navajo for the past 2 years in marginal VFR conditions single pilot without an autopilot, I'm begging for the day I have a functioning autopilot installed! Until then, back to riding the tree tops VFR :(

I did fly heavies back when I was using FS2002. Mostly for the ability to cover large distances - any flight less than several thousand miles felt like a big waste of time. This has changed now thanks to the many VFR sceneries available.Also did it because of the feeling of being in control of such a big and powerful machine.Nowadyas I find it boring. Mostly because to me, airliners = air travel = boring, claustrophobic and annoying. Also I suppose it's because I never found the patience and energy to do some procedures properly especially since starting my studies at uni...As far as challenges go, both kinds of flying are challenging but in different ways.Even if I could, I don't think I would want to work as an airline pilot in real life. I'd rather fly Beavers in the NW or Alaska or help those in need in Africa and Asia through flying. But most of all, if I ever get the chance to fly in real life, it would simply be for fun. Could easily see myself having a wellpaid office work and going flying every now and then just for fun.