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Simicro

New Pushback addon coming soon

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Hi all,

 

An alternative to AES and GSX is currently under beta-testing: FS2CREW Ultimate Ground Crew X

 

 

It should work with all aircraft at all airports.

 

I should note however that our emphasis is on pushing and towing.

 

We're not doing GSX style Catering trucks and cargo loading.

 

But our pushback system is much more feature rich than anything else out there.

 

 

More info: click here

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Looks interesting. Pushing back is always such a pain and I can never seem to get it right. 

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What I miss from GSX is an automatic intergration with PMDG ground services :-)! Its pushback service works like a charm though.

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I think PMDG Ground Services, being such a new thing, just hasn't had the exposure out there yet to have things integrate with it.  Give it time and I'm sure people will add it in.

 

See what happened with the 777 Wind Uplink?

 

 

 

As far as the pushback feature goes, I'm all in.  As a supporter of FS2Crew, I'm excited to see what this brings in.

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GSX sucks big time as far as pushback goes (which is the most critical thing to get right imo). It's really all about customization, if this utility can offer us the following then I believe it will be the gold standard for ground service add-ons.

 

1) Custom pushback paths eg push straight back on the hard stand, push into the alleyway, push out of the alleyway, push face west/east/tail north/face south, push to spot romeo, etc.

2) Custom pushback speed. GSX is agonizing to sit there for a good 10 minutes while they "push" you at a blistering 1mph, then disconnect, reverse as slow as possible, then the little guy does a dance and gets on the tug just to go back towards you to get to the gate.... what?! We're burning fuel over here!

3) A variety of pushback behaviors eg disconnect as quickly as possible, get the tug out of the way, and have a single ground agent stand near the nosegear to 'send off' the aircraft.

4) Tow in to the gate. 

5) Reposition. It'd be great to mimic the behaviors of many of the LAX flights, or our Air China flight here in Houston where you load up at a remote stand, start from cold and dark, request a reposition to the gate, then board baggage/pax, do the preflight, push and go.

 

I get particularly frustrated using GSX to push my SWA flights. More often than not I find myself thinking "I ain't got time for this, I've got six more legs on this flight!"  :lol:

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2) Custom pushback speed. GSX is agonizing to sit there for a good 10 minutes while they "push" you at a blistering 1mph, then disconnect, reverse as slow as possible, then the little guy does a dance and gets on the tug just to go back towards you to get to the gate.... what?! We're burning fuel over here!

 

I'm not sure what airlines you're emulating (or what gates you're pushing out of), but if you're emulating real world flows, they're completely out of the way by then.  Even SWA has a decently long after start flow, as I've observed on several flights as a passenger.  Most airlines don't end up moving until the FA demo is complete, too, and that takes a decent amount of time.

 

I'm curious as to how you think it should go.  I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a ton better than anything else out on the market.

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Will see. They have to deliver something better than previous two options which both works nice and has extra content.

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I'm not sure what airlines you're emulating (or what gates you're pushing out of), but if you're emulating real world flows, they're completely out of the way by then.  Even SWA has a decently long after start flow, as I've observed on several flights as a passenger.  Most airlines don't end up moving until the FA demo is complete, too, and that takes a decent amount of time.

 

I'm curious as to how you think it should go.  I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a ton better than anything else out on the market.

 

You're missing me. I'm not saying make it go as fast as I want, I'm saying give me the option to make it as fast as I know it is in real life. On Southwest flights out of Hobby, we're stationary for maybe a minute or two after a brief push straight back to the taxiline, then it's a bit of thrust to get to the runway quickly. 

 

That said, GSX takes a different amount of time depending on whether the AFCAD defines the gate as small, medium, or heavy. Perhaps you're thinking I'm referring to the small spot pushback. That push is actually pretty good, but with the heavy and medium size it gets pretty ridiculously long to get off the gate, to the point where I don't even light the starters till they've finished pushing and start their disconnect, pull-away, dance, pull back in routine.

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which both works nice and has extra content.

 

Like the "you suck at parking" commentary that's not at all correct?  Gotta love that.  You park bang on the markings and it's all "that wasn't a good parking..."  :rolleyes:

 

 

You're missing me. I'm not saying make it go as fast as I want, I'm saying give me the option to make it as fast as I know it is in real life. On Southwest flights out of Hobby, we're stationary for maybe a minute or two after a brief push straight back to the taxiline, then it's a bit of thrust to get to the runway quickly. 

 

That said, GSX takes a different amount of time depending on whether the AFCAD defines the gate as small, medium, or heavy. Perhaps you're thinking I'm referring to the small spot pushback. That push is actually pretty good, but with the heavy and medium size it gets pretty ridiculously long to get off the gate, to the point where I don't even light the starters till they've finished pushing and start their disconnect, pull-away, dance, pull back in routine.

 

I don't think I'm missing you at all, really.  I'm curious as to where you're getting your timings from based on the real world.  I'd suggest timing them on a watch next time.  I think you'd be surprised at how long it actually takes for all of that to go down.

 

Just for reference, I've I pushed back CRJ2s, CRJ7s, E145s, E170s, SF34s, A319s, and a bunch of GA/Biz stuff at various airports/gates/stands/etc. - so I'm not just questioning your timing as some random internet commenter with no clue.  It's definitely not perfect on speed (we'd occasionally haul [rear] - a little faster than we should've, but whatever), but it's close enough.  The disconnect could take some time as well, if the tow bar wasn't aligned nicely when ready for the disconnect.

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I'm not just questioning your timing as some random internet commenter with no clue. 

 

 

I'll add that I'm not throwing out random timings as some random internet commenter with no clue. That's great that your real world experiences match those that GSX provide in-sim. Unfortunately they don't match my extensive real world experiences. I can tell we're not going to get anywhere though, so agree to disagree.  ^_^

 

I'll grab some video next time out and put it up side by side with some sim recordings for a more direct comparison.

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Like the "you suck at parking" commentary that's not at all correct?  Gotta love that.  You park bang on the markings and it's all "that wasn't a good parking..." 

 

Agree, the commentary is unnecessary. I ignore him. I hate when he doesn't know at which side to go after pushback, so he stays in front of aircraft. 

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I'll add that I'm not throwing out random timings as some random internet commenter with no clue. That's great that your real world experiences match those that GSX provide in-sim. Unfortunately they don't match my extensive real world experiences. I can tell we're not going to get anywhere though, so agree to disagree.  ^_^

 

I'll grab some video next time out and put it up side by side with some sim recordings for a more direct comparison.

 

No offense meant, but in my experience, "agree to disagree" has always been used as a deflection to avoid the use of actual knowledge or experience to properly defend a topic.  It's a way to "bow out" of a disagreement without admitting you're wrong, really.  It's similar to the "everyone is entitled to their opinion" argument:

 

 

The problem with “I’m entitled to my opinion” is that, all too often, it’s used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned. It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like” – and by extension, continuing to argue is somehow disrespectful. And this attitude feeds, I suggest, into the false equivalence between experts and non-experts that is an increasingly pernicious feature of our public discourse.

 

You mentioned "extensive" real world experience, but fail to back that up with any actual hard data to speak to what that experience is...so I assume that means "I've sat in the back of lots of airplanes."

 

Please do grab that video.  I'm intensely interested in where your idea of realism comes from, since it seems to be so far off from my direct ramp experience.

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...anyway...

Hope it will come as "standalone" application (not tied to some of previous products like Emergency pack for NGX).

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The main "issue" that folks I speak to isthat GSX can only do preflight ops with engines off. I explain that realistically that's the way it is. Still some of them don't care so much about when engines should be started, but more about taxi to rw, take off, cruise and land, etc.

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The FS2CREW push back js going to be a welcome addition.

 

Being able to interact with the Ground Crew is what I'm looking forward to.  Just adds that extra layer of immersion.

 

Hirdy

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No offense meant, but in my experience, "agree to disagree" has always been used as a deflection to avoid the use of actual knowledge or experience to properly defend a topic.  It's a way to "bow out" of a disagreement without admitting you're wrong, really.  It's similar to the "everyone is entitled to their opinion" argument:

 

You mentioned "extensive" real world experience, but fail to back that up with any actual hard data to speak to what that experience is...so I assume that means "I've sat in the back of lots of airplanes."

 

Please do grab that video.  I'm intensely interested in where your idea of realism comes from, since it seems to be so far off from my direct ramp experience.

 

Haha.  :lol: Okay Mr. Rodgers, I'm not going to argue with you. 

 

Hey you make it a great day, okay?  ^_^

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Like the "you suck at parking" commentary that's not at all correct? Gotta love that. You park bang on the markings and it's all "that wasn't a good parking..." :rolleyes:
+1 got to love that!

 

 


Just for reference, I've I pushed back CRJ2s, CRJ7s, E145s, E170s, SF34s, A319s, and a bunch of GA/Biz stuff at various airports/gates/stands/etc. - so I'm not just questioning your timing as some random internet commenter with no clue. It's definitely not perfect on speed (we'd occasionally haul [rear] - a little faster than we should've, but whatever), but it's close enough. The disconnect could take some time as well, if the tow bar wasn't aligned nicely when ready for the disconnect.
I agree. We are taught to push back at walking speeds not just for the mechanic to keep up, but for the FA who are standing inside. Pushing back fast is not an easy thing to do especially if you are turning. Things can easily get out of hand fast and you damage the plane. At work on my FMC tugs, I push on 3rd gear which is plenty fast for say an A330-300 and bigger.

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I agree. We are taught to push back at walking speeds not just for the mechanic to keep up, but for the FA who are standing inside. Pushing back fast is not an easy thing to do especially if you are turning. Things can easily get out of hand fast and you damage the plane. At work on my FMC tugs, I push on 3rd gear which is plenty fast for say an A330-300 and bigger.

 

Exactly!  And thanks - I needed a little backup there.

 

With a tug and towbar (the small stuff I pushed could've easily gone out with Lektros), I usually just popped the brake and let the plane drag me out, initially, depending on the gate (there's a slight downhill on some of them, and the weight of the plane on the downhill was sufficient to kinda back itself out to get it rolling).  From there, it was a nice, smooth application of power, and a relatively slow turn out to line them up on the taxilane.  After that, of course, everything has to be disconnected and backed out to go hook the next plane up.

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Just wanted to add this video (not mine) to illustrate. 

 

SWA 735 out of DAL, stationary at the gate to taxiing under own power in just 2 minutes.

 

 

Too many factors to please all of the people all of the time, which is why I'm really looking forward to a customizable solution. 

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2) Custom pushback speed. GSX is agonizing to sit there for a good 10 minutes while they "push" you at a blistering 1mph, then disconnect, reverse as slow as possible, then the little guy does a dance and gets on the tug just to go back towards you to get to the gate.... what?! We're burning fuel over here!

 

Hi,

 

Out of any real life experience (I mean as pilot), I understand the point somehow. It is sometimes frustrating to wait for GSX crew to disconnect and go away on long pushbacks.

At some heavy gates, the pushback time is quite long and covers almost the whole start up / after start process and checklist, letting you just sit and waiting for the tug to leave.

The tug seems to pull out quite far of the aircraft and the crew stops in front of you to wave you even when both engines are running before getting onto the tug and leave.

AES may be less realistic (?) but it takes far less time to get free after pushback.

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SWA 735 out of DAL, stationary at the gate to taxiing under own power in just 2 minutes.

 

It's 2min and 20 sec  :lol: I'm going to turn chronometer next time I use GSX to compare.

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Just wanted to add this video (not mine) to illustrate. 
 
SWA 735 out of DAL, stationary at the gate to taxiing under own power in just 2 minutes.
 
Too many factors to please all of the people all of the time, which is why I'm really looking forward to a customizable solution. 

 

Thanks for the evidence.  So, if you were to push from the same gate for the same angle in GSX, this would be comparably longer?  Perhaps it's just because I use GSX at FlightBeam's IAD (where I worked, as well), that I see the timings as reasonably accurate (we don't have any awkward taxi alleys like you see in the video).

 

I will say, though, that you have to go 1:1 here.  You can't use a 2:20 push that's essentially straight out of a gate with no turn against a GSX push that involves a 90 turn to place someone on the centerline of a taxilane.  It was a lot easier for us to dump out a ton of CRJ2s, CRJ7s, E145s and SF34s because they were all straight out pushes (with a 30 degree turn *max* to get off of the gate).  Over on the B/C/D gates, we were given directional pushes.  That takes a decent amount of time (and space).

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I don't deal with the regionals so I have no say there. However there are a few factors that delay the ground crew from disconnect. Things such as the final angle the tow bar is to the tug can jam the " tow pin" and require some time. Also the tow bar users is a factor. Not all stations use the small quick release tow bar for a 737. We have a lot of pump action tow bars for our 737 / a320. Thus the disconnect time is about the same as a widebody.

Also another factor is visibility. As SAS13 can tell you, you can't really see straight behind you when pushing small aircraft. The same applies to a 737. Unless its a straight push, you have to take your time.

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If it works with GA, I hope it takes a loooong time for certain aircraft.

 

Anyone who has ever pushed a Cirrus back into a crowded hanger using a tractor + bar knows just how annoying that castering nose wheel can be! 

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