Outerra Roadmap

[cameni 9]

By the way a targeted Google search for Outerra in the last month shows Levis A380 video cropping up all over the place. We know (or we should!) that Outerra is not a flight sim, but unless you're a complete skeptic, its hard not to see the potential. Lets hope all this extra mind-share in the community and elsewhere leads to something good.

 

There are lot of skeptics though. That targeted search also led me to an Orbx forum topic, where John Venema commented on it:

 

The Outerra devs have contacted me a few times, we've played with their engine, but it does not really compare in scope and function to FSX/P3D so we did not progress it further.

 

It's one thing to make some cool demo videos, but another entirely to compress 30 years of development and subsystems (FSX/P3D) into a few years of engine coding. They seem like a nice bunch of guys but they've made an engine that is looking for a purpose and FS is not it, sorry to say.

 

Just because AVSIM makes a forum does not give it anymore credibility or chance of success, after all, they made an MS-Flight forum too!

 

Despite all the moaning and groaning people do over FSX/P3D, show me anything out there that has:

 

- Round world whole-earth model

- Landclass based scenery

- Efficient autogen engine

- 70km+ horizon with millions of polys/triangles per frame

- Great SDK and third party extensibility and community

- Ongoing development team (LM)

... and the list goes on

 

I've said it before but nothing comes close to the FSX/P3D engine (now P3D2.x really in all honesty), and trust me when I tell you I am a 3D engine enthusiast that looks closely at the industry all the time.

 

Give LM a few more years to add DX11/DX12 systems, new physics, enhanced lighting, much more performance through leaner code, new animation systems and I can tell you nothing will touch it.

 

Be very thankful with what we've got, it's the best out there.

 

Here you have a "3D engine enthusiast" who doesn't see any potential in Outerra for flight sims. Also note "give LM a few more years ..." :Raised Eyebrow:

 

Btw it's not true we ever contacted them, they were looking for any possible future replacement for FSX after Microsoft pulled out and contacted us. It was very early into our development, and it really required someone who could see through the bare demo towards the potential.

[cameni 9]

Wasn't the same issue seen in FSX initially if I recall, where the trees were exaggerated in size? Either way, until we are able to place our own trees and different types, this is something that can't yet be controlled. Most of the houses I added to the library following the simple rule of "Number of stories * 3m + foundation + roof" which works well and seems to follow the OSM guidelines for 3D objects

 

We worked with dept. of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology in Arizona University, and the tree heights for used species come from their data. The problem is that these heights are for trees growing inside forests, where the trees compete for sunlight and grow much higher than the sparse ones that have enough space in urban areas. When you place the deep forest ones close to buildings, they will look exaggerated in size because that's not where you can see them normally. More so because since the models used are mostly of the standalone trees that were just scaled to the requested tree size. It clearly needs different models for trees depending on where they grow, and also to change this subtype around the urban and sparse areas.

 

Here's a video from presentation about how the forests will change according to current climate models, where Outerra is referred and shown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PuhqAzTcow#t=653

[HiFlyer 9,343]

There are lot of skeptics though. That targeted search also led me to an Orbx forum topic, where John Venema commented on it:

 

And are you worried about that? I wouldn't be, in your shoes. That would just push me to do all I could to prove the skeptics wrong.

 

The whole idea of heavier than air flight had its skeptics, and look where we are now.......  :rolleyes:

 

People with vision pushed on. And people using their own eyes and brains were free to make their own judgments.

 

You have the advantage that the possible applications of your program are almost unbelievably broad. Should the flight sim market prove unwilling or unable to support new ideas, there are dozens of possible directions for you to go, leaving us to wonder what might have been.

 

Take it with a grain of salt and remember at least two of Clarkes three laws of prediction:

 

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

 

Take your own lessons from the above. I think a lot of people are rooting for you!  :smile:

[Baber20 1,438]

 

There are lot of skeptics though. That targeted search also led me to an Orbx forum topic, where John Venema commented on it:

 

 

Here you have a "3D engine enthusiast" who doesn't see any potential in Outerra for flight sims. Also note "give LM a few more years ..." :Raised Eyebrow:

 

Btw it's not true we ever contacted them, they were looking for any possible future replacement for FSX after Microsoft pulled out and contacted us. It was very early into our development, and it really required someone who could see through the bare demo towards the potential.

 

Don't let that guy get in your head. I have tried them all, FSX, p3d, p3dv2 and x-plane 10. Trust me when I say that only in Outerra you get that realistic look. The atmospheric effects, the lighting, the haze, textures etc etc. Outerra is just miles ahead in the visuals department. And there are still alot of things yet to be implemented like clouds, ssao and lights. When it all comes together, it's going to be one of a kind.

 

Regarding John Venema and Orbx, they are just die hard fsx/p3d fans. Remember that they also refused to develop for X-Plane 10. There will still be tons of add on developers willing to support and develop for Outerra Flight Sim and some of them have already stated that they will in that other thread.

[cameni 9]

Well, I'm not worried for OT's own sake, I just smiled when reading that we "made an engine that is looking for a purpose". As you wrote the breadth of possible applications is enormous, even if we judge it only by the number and variety of companies and developers contacting us, and the projects that are already underway.

 

For the simulator we'll have to win the support of content makers to make it a thriving ecosystem, sooner or later. Having some of them proclaiming support for the campaign would be surely beneficial to the outcome, IMHO almost a necessity, even though I'm not so sure what part of the backers of a "universal" simulator will be actually made of purely flight sim fans, where the well-known addon maker names will matter.

 

But that's one of the goals of the pre-campaign prototype: to have all major tools and components of a simulator in some basic form there, showing what will be ultimately possible not only to users but also to developers.

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

Here you have a "3D engine enthusiast" who doesn't see any potential in Outerra for flight sims. Also note "give LM a few more years ..." :Raised Eyebrow:

 

Btw it's not true we ever contacted them, they were looking for any possible future replacement for FSX after Microsoft pulled out and contacted us. It was very early into our development, and it really required someone who could see through the bare demo towards the potential.

 

I did post in that thread to correct him on the fact that Outerra is not looking for a flight simulation purpose, but considering that he did lie about you contacting them, I feel he's completely written it off from now. What he's saying about future Prepar3D iterations sounds exciting, but do we know if that's what Lockheed Martin are actually planning or are those just some baseless assumptions about the future?

[CyberMike 18]

Yes of course it would need to compete and the market share would divide by three.

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=6c6ab5d748528649&id=6C6AB5D748528649!1306&ithint=folder,jpg&authkey=!AEHggguwsawGaGg

for ex. left P3D right x-plane.

Last time I've fired up Outerra I was disappointed by some bad shadows on the A380 fuselage. It didn't look good but before that I had a nice swim

at some beach with waves rolling in.

 

A good idea would be to team up with Carenado etc. as it might be not to much work to port planes from X-Plane. Didn't those that bought FSX rights

announce such partnership with Flight1 as well? So that would divide market by four...

Well not really as Linux/Mac are increasingly used.

[HiFlyer 9,343]

Well, I was unaware of that thread until just now, but from previous knowledge of the forum, it seemed like something that was going to be very quickly locked. I just went over there to take a look.....
 
And........... its locked.
 

Let me give you a visual clue about Outerra: they have one single species of tree covering the entire planet over the top of procedurally generated bland terrain. That to me tells me that their basic terrain engine is an aftertought that needs serious R&D before they can provide a realistic global terrain engine that gives a sense of reality. Go back and review all their videos and your can see the landscape resembles a generic pseudo-world more akin to a fantasy roleplaying game than a simulator.

 

 
My first thought is that if if someone is going to comment, especially from a presumed position of authority, one might at least take the time to check up on the state of the subject before writing it off with out of date information. That kind of says it all right there, unfortunately. 

 

Single species of tree...... 

 

 

 

Very bland.......

 

Last time I've fired up Outerra I was disappointed by some bad shadows on the A380 fuselage. It didn't look good but before that I had a nice swim
at some beach with waves rolling in.

 

Yup, Outerra is a work in progress, and I don't think anyone, least of all the developers is unaware of how far it has to go...

 

But I myself think the journey would be interesting and fun. The good news is that they will be completely reworking the shadows, but are just holding off until some other things are in place......  

 

In fact, Cameni just posted these, and says give them a few more days......  B)

 

 

[saed45 38]

 

 

For the simulator we'll have to win the support of content makers to make it a thriving ecosystem, sooner or later.

 

the only way to do this is to make sure you have a robust SDK for developers to put their stuff on and clear directions.

 

i think one thing that has hold xplane back for so many years is that their SDK is not as good as people will like and they don't move as fast as possible to fix it and thats why few developers came abroad.

please do not forget this as 3rd party development is crucial for OT success 

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

A good idea would be to team up with Carenado etc. as it might be not to much work to port planes from X-Plane.

 

Carenado would probably not respond to something like this because they've already announced that they're sick of porting their old projects to X-Plane and that they'd rather work on new projects instead.

[AndyPaul 11]

The business plan of Orbx does not involve anything else than FSX/P3D. They made their decision and stand with it (for now). They have to since there is money invested and investors wanting to see results. So Orbx cant be blamed (yet) for sticking with FSX/P3D.

 

The fact that he apparently has old information from Outerra is ok, one cannot keep up with all the development and since they're not interested in anything else than FSX/P3D, its no big deal. As soon as Outerra lifts off, in particular when weather and proper gauges are implemented, they might rethink their strategies as will everyone else. As soon as there's a business opportunity they will jump aboard. But, for OrbX to be able to succesffully develop anything for Outerra they would have to change their complete workflow, particularly with respect to the handling of OpenStreetMap data and that will be very difficult. So, I think, that Outerra will offer many opportunities for new players on the market, that sort of grew up with the platform ... they might already be amongst us.

 

As said previously, as long as Outerra does not repeat the mistakes of FSX/P3D and X-plane in terms of Autogen engine but concentrates on what it can best (procedural generation) it will succeed. As soon as I have a PC capable of running it I will start playing with, as soon as the SDK is out, I will build for it, as soon as proper gauges, navaids etc, are implemented, I will fly with it.

 

Or I will just stand ontop of a mountain and look with wonder down into the valeys with their small rivers, trees and cars.

 

Edit: Another mistake of FSX/P3D was to not having an updatable navigation database that can be used by each and every plane that will be developed for it.

[1mikel151 71]

 

cameni, on 07 Sept 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

For the simulator we'll have to win the support of content makers to make it a thriving ecosystem, sooner or later.

 

 

 

 

the only way to do this is to make sure you have a robust SDK for developers to put their stuff on and clear directions.

 

i think one thing that has hold xplane back for so many years is that their SDK is not as good as people will like and they don't move as fast as possible to fix it and thats why few developers came abroad.

please do not forget this as 3rd party development is crucial for OT success

 

 

Couldn't agree more. Just focus on getting the base set, get core features added like weather and seasons and most important make sure there is enough performance headroom and with tools and documentation, the 3rd party devs will come. I have modded for games with little to no SDK/mod support and for ones with tons of support, either way usually the tools eventually show up for modding, but with the developers support it comes much faster.

If you had a comprehensive object placement tool right now, I would have a ton of sceneries installed already, LOL.

[scotchegg 4,168]

JV's blanket panning of any other sims does make me wonder if he has some exclusivity agreement saying he can only develop for ESP based sims. It doesn't seem to make much sense to bet the whole farm on P3D.

 

Having said that I can't help feeling profoundly skeptical about Outerra simply because it's been around for so long but as far as I know, no devs who've had a good look at it have thought it's worth taking a punt on. Just out of interest, has this 8 year old engine been used in anything?

 

It does look marvelous in short videos though and if a good demo can be knocked up I'll be at the front of the kickstarter queue.

[cameni 9]

Having said that I can't help feeling profoundly skeptical about Outerra simply because it's been around for so long but as far as I know, no devs who've had a good look at it have thought it's worth taking a punt on. Just out of interest, has this 8 year old engine been used in anything?

 

Not sure where those 8 years are coming from, in 2008 we met and started getting the engine together from our old terrain and engine codes. It took a lot of time just to make the first basic version working. Initially we kept the development blog at gamedev.net, under the name "Journal of Lethargic Programmers", as Outerra wasn't conceived yet. It was a hobby project; it wasn't until 2010 when we started fully working on it, and released the first public demo in Feb 2012.

 

Of course, working on a whole new full world 3D engine with 2 people wasn't anywhere fast. We have a couple of special simulation projects (military) using it. Here's one that was publicly revealed: http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=1248.0

Some other (bigger) projects will be revealed by the end of this year.

[wolke85 150]

[...]

Just focus on getting the base set, get core features added like weather and seasons and most important make sure there is enough performance headroom and with tools and documentation, the 3rd party devs will come. I have modded for games with little to no SDK/mod support and for ones with tons of support, either way usually the tools eventually show up for modding, but with the developers support it comes much faster.

 

If you had a comprehensive object placement tool right now, I would have a ton of sceneries installed already, LOL.

 

+1

Keep on up with Your great work Cameni and also all the others at Your team - stay focused on it and when ready, give us (flight) simmers the chance to go simming and start populating Outerra (and make it become popular! :wink:)