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rsrandazzo

Lockheed Martin Prepar3D Development Status Thread - Updated 25OCT14

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Hmm, so now the big question comes. Do I shell out for converting the 777 to P3D, or do I keep that for FSX, and get the 747 for P3D...

 

Will you guys offer package deals btw.? FSX+P3D or XPL+P3D?


--Peter Fabian 
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Is everyone else missing some more news I don't think I've seen before...!!?!?

 

 

:D

What's interesting is that he calls it a "Base Package" :huh: Am I reading too much into it?

 

EDIT: Oh, I suppose the 747F could be an extension package.


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Not at all.  The type of license you own on P3D is between you and Lockheed Martin.

 

The type of license you purchase from PMDG is between you and us- and we will not base any of our licensing requirements on which type of license you purchased from Lockheed Martin...

 

Great news! I completely misinterpreted the opening post.


Stephen

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What's interesting is that he calls it a "Base Package" :huh: Am I reading too much into it?

 

EDIT: Oh, I suppose the 747F could be an extension package.

I have a feeling the base package will consist of the 744 and 744F, the extension will be the 748i and 748f.


Name available upon request


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"It is anticipated this license will fall in the sub $200 range"

 

It is 'funny' to see that some developers use the P3D differentiated license structure to ask substantial higher/premium prices compared to FSX.

For the commercially licensed P3D I can imaging, but for the academic version  :blink:

Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.


Location: Vleuten, The Netherlands, 15.7dme EHAM
System: P3D V4 - 80386 DX2 - 4MB RAM - 3dfx Voodoo5 - Windows 3.11

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"It is anticipated this license will fall in the sub $200 range"

 

It is 'funny' to see that some developers use the P3D differentiated license structure to ask substantial higher/premium prices compared to FSX.

For the commercially licensed P3D I can imaging, but for the academic version :blink:

Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.

Not funny at all in my eyes. Its an obvious price threshold which can be used to easily differentiate between an 'enthusiast' and a 'professional' version, and consequently the associated legal risk from Boeing's perspective, to allow Boeing to allow PMDG to supply us with the enthusiast product within the terms of their licence. I would expect to see the actual price much lower than that, especially for license transfers, but thats pure speculation as RR has said they havent set the price yet so wait and see :) K

Kevin Firth - i9 10850K @5.2; Asus Maximus XII Hero; 32Gb Cas14 3200 DDR4; RTX2080Ti

Beta tester for: UK2000; JustFlight; VoxATC; FSReborn; //42

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and consequently the associated legal risk from Boeing's perspective, to allow Boeing to allow PMDG to supply us with the enthusiast product within the terms of their licence.

 

Bingo. People in the sim community are doing a terrible job understanding that the sims are manufactured for two entirely different reasons: FSX - entertainment; P3D commercial use and bulk licensing (academia). Part of the reason is that a lot of people think LM bought FSX. This is not true. LM bought ESP, which few have even heard of because it was never meant for them (in many ways, it still isn't). The only reason people have latched onto it is because FSX died and ESP>P3D was all that was left. I'd argue people would have continued to ignore it if FSX development had continued.

 

All that said, P3D being a commercial product, the owners of the base product (in the case of modeling Boeing aircraft, the owner of the base product would be Boeing) have a right to impose varying licensing fees for various things: its likeness (how it looks), its data (how it performs by the numbers), and so on. The owners of that base product see that, in commercial markets, more money stands to be made, so they charge more for the product. This cost, following very basic economic principles, is passed to the consumer.

 

For those who are still struggling with this concept, here's some cursory ECON 101:

 

Business 1, which owns Product A, licenses Product A's data in an entertainment market for $20 per unit sold. Apart from licensing concerns, Business 2 needs to sell this product at $25 per unit sold to cover various costs and make a $5 profit. Without adjusting for the licensing cost, they would be losing $15 per sale (a net loss). This in mind, the company adjusts the final sale price to $45 to cover all costs and make a $5 profit.

 

Business 1 also offers Product A's data for licensing in a commercial market for $40 per unit sold. Again, apart from licensing concerns, Business 2 still needs to sell this product at $25 per unit sold (basically, we're assuming no additional work needs to be done to move this product into this commercial market) to cover costs and make a $5 profit. Without adjusting for the licensing cost, and selling it at the earlier entertainment price ($45), they would be losing $20 per sale (again, a net loss). This in mind, the company adjusts the final sale price to $65 to cover all costs and make a $5 profit.

 

In both cases, only $5 is made in profit. The change in cost to the consumer, given this case here, is not one of greed; rather, the change in cost to the consumer is one of catering to the intended use by the consumer.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as things go, this is a very simple concept: the owner of the data sees P3D as a commercial product. A commercial license is required to use their data in a commercial product. This costs more money. Fact. This is not at all unique to this market sector, either.


Kyle Rodgers

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I have a feeling the base package will consist of the 744 and 744F, the extension will be the 748i and 748f.

I think so too. It's going to be neat to see the new cockpit layout. The 787-style displays are going to be another tech breakthrough for PMDG.


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As far as I know, there's no difference between the displays in the later models of the 744, and those in the 748.

There is quite some extra information the pilots can display on them, though.

The physical displays aren't different between those two.


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Bingo. People in the sim community are doing a terrible job understanding that the sims are manufactured for two entirely different reasons: FSX - entertainment; P3D commercial use and bulk licensing (academia).

 

With due respect....

Then LM must make a random distinguish between developers... The majority of the developers do not charge anything extra for their P3D products, or only a small charge to compensate for the changes that have to be made.

Apparantly PMDG (and a tiny few others) are treated differently by LM in that respect because apparantly they are 'forced' to charge the Academic users with a more then premium price... Yeah right....

 

P.S. Don't understand me wrong. PMDG is fully entitled to ask any price, it's their product.

But don't use the LM license structure as an excuse for premium prices...


Location: Vleuten, The Netherlands, 15.7dme EHAM
System: P3D V4 - 80386 DX2 - 4MB RAM - 3dfx Voodoo5 - Windows 3.11

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With due respect....

Then LM must make a random distinguish between developers... The majority of the developers do not charge anything extra for their P3D products, or only a small charge to compensate for the changes that have to be made.

Apparantly PMDG (and a tiny few others) are treated differently by LM in that respect because apparantly they are 'forced' to charge the Academic users with a more then premium price... Yeah right....

 

Saw your email (well, the email from AVSIM that had your user name referenced in it) and immediately thought "that's a name I haven't heard in a long time."

(I was in SVA waaay back - partial reason for the forum name...)

 

You're showing a complete lack of understanding of the issue here, though. LM isn't the issue. Boeing is. PMDG licenses Boeing data. This license is limited to entertainment use only. They had to go back and discuss the issue with Boeing again to be allowed to use Boeing data in a commercial product, which required a different license from Boeing. RSR has covered this several times here.

 

So what you're saying is that, since others are doing something different then they must be doing the right thing? There are a ton of people around me who are independent contractors and get paid under the table. They're escaping paying more in taxes by assuming they're not going to get caught. They likely won't, but you can't sit there and tell me they're doing the right thing.

 

I, myself, could go out and create a company that creates realistic representations of Cessna aircraft and charge people money for them without having ever spoken to Cessna about it. I'm sure Cessna object to my use of their trademarks and work, but who's to say they're going to find out. So, Cessna might not find out for a long time, if ever, and I escape having to pay them at all for using their trademarks/work. I'm willing to bet that anyone who is offering their products (based on real world aircraft) for little to no extra cost probably hasn't spoken with the company about releasing their product in a commercial product. I'm not going to say that they definitely have, but I have high doubts that anyone who is taking the necessary due diligence would just get a "sure - go ahead" from whoever holds the license.

 

Commercial data costs more money from the person who owns the data. Companies like PMDG (Flight1, Aerosoft, etc.) have no control over this. It's all based on the agreement between the developer and the license holder.


Kyle Rodgers

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With due respect....

Then LM must make a random distinguish between developers... The majority of the developers do not charge anything extra for their P3D products, or only a small charge to compensate for the changes that have to be made.

Apparantly PMDG (and a tiny few others) are treated differently by LM in that respect because apparantly they are 'forced' to charge the Academic users with a more then premium price... Yeah right....

 

P.S. Don't understand me wrong. PMDG is fully entitled to ask any price, it's their product.

But don't use the LM license structure as an excuse for premium prices...

Its nothing to do with LM, the other devs dont have to licence a deal theough Boeing! to try to compare PMDG with other devs is apples and pears :P Lawyer costs plus development costs (yes there are some) add up to a charge of some size for your P3D PMDG products. don't expect PMDG to subsidise that for you please :P


Kevin Firth - i9 10850K @5.2; Asus Maximus XII Hero; 32Gb Cas14 3200 DDR4; RTX2080Ti

Beta tester for: UK2000; JustFlight; VoxATC; FSReborn; //42

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Gents-

 

I recognize that some folks would love nothing more than for PMDG to throw open the door and say, "take what you like, it is all free" but I think that shows a pretty significant lack of understanding of the realities of day to day business.

 

I am sitting here at my development machine, with the debugger running on my PC, and I have a suite of development tools that I am using in the Win7 environment.  I have my MacbookPro sitting next to me, running the same suite of tools- except in MacOS. 

 

Two different platforms...  Two different licenses.  Welcome to reality.

 

There are some folks who are jumping into this debate with venom because they are the same practitioners of dissent that jump into any topic and try to create drama.  Lets ignore those folks and instead focus on the reality of where this is headed:

 

Lockheed Martin Prepar3D is a professional simulation platform.  It is not FSX, nor is it FSXv2.0 nor is it FSXI.

 

Other developers in the community have decided to let users move licenses back and forth between platforms.  At PMDG we have not.  Our products and development process is governed by a completely different set of rules because we properly license our rights to use materials in the simulations we create.  These materials are owned by some very big companies, and those companies set limits and expectations.

 

We could easily choose to disregard our obligations, but then we would lose the access, support and relationships we have built over the past seventeen years and our products would cease to be what they are...

 

Prepar3D is the platform that PMDG will be using to enter the professional training market- and for this reason we are approaching this as an entirely different platform and marketing effort.  Not everybody will agree with us, or like the direction we are taking with Prepar3D- but I should point out that we aren't requiring you to buy anything.  We don't wish to, nor would we force you to purchase our products on Prepar3D.  The platform you choose to use is entirely your own decision and suddenly you will have a multitude of choices where you had none, before.

 

Choose the platform that is best suited to your use- and go that direction.

 

In the mean time- lets the rest of us ignore the antagonists... they just create noise and smoke, but no forward motion...


Robert S. Randazzo coolcap.gif

PLEASE NOTE THAT PMDG HAS DEPARTED AVSIM

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Good luck in the professional training market Robert, that way lies commercial success for PMDG, and consequently a much higher likelihood of continued high grade aircraft available to us simmers in the coming years...

Good luck in the professional training market Robert, that way lies commercial success for PMDG, and consequently a much higher likelihood of continued high grade aircraft available to us simmers in the coming years.


Kevin Firth - i9 10850K @5.2; Asus Maximus XII Hero; 32Gb Cas14 3200 DDR4; RTX2080Ti

Beta tester for: UK2000; JustFlight; VoxATC; FSReborn; //42

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